Gorgias (476)

Soc.

So you see, Polus, that when one proof is contrasted with the other they have no resemblance, but whereas you have the assent of every one else except myself, I am satisfied with your sole and single assent and evidence,

and I take but your vote only and disregard the rest. Now let us leave this matter where it stands, and proceed next to examine the second part on which we found ourselves at issue—whether for a wrongdoer to pay the penalty is the greatest of evils, as you supposed, or to escape it is a greater, as I on my side held. Let us look at it this way: do you call paying the just penalty, and being justly punished, for wrongdoing the same thing?

Pol.

I do.

Soc.

And can you maintain that all just things are not fair, in so far as they are just? Consider well before you speak.

Pol.

No, I think they are, Socrates.

Soc.

Then take another point: if a man does anything, must there be something which is also acted upon by this doer of the thing?

Pol.

I think so.

Soc.

And does it suffer what the doer does, and is the effect such as the agent’s action makes it? I mean, for example, when one strikes a blow something must needs be struck?

Pol.

It must.

Soc.

And if the striker strikes hard or quick,

the thing struck is struck in the same way?

Pol.

Yes.

Soc.

Hence the effect in the thing struck is such as the striker makes it?

Pol.

Certainly.

Soc.

And so again, if one burns, something must be burnt?

Pol.

Yes, of course.

Soc.

And if one burns severely or sorely, the thing burnt is burnt according as the burner burns it?

Pol.

Certainly.

Soc.

And again, if one cuts, the same may be said? For something is cut.

Pol.

Yes.

Soc.

And if the cut is large or deep or sore,

the cut made in the thing cut is such as the cutter cuts it?

Pol.

Apparently.

Soc.

Then putting it all in a word, see if you agree that what I was just saying applies to all cases—that the patient receives an effect of the same kind as the agent’s action.

Pol.

I do agree.

Soc.

Then this being admitted, is paying the penalty suffering something, or doing it?

Pol.

Suffering it must be, Socrates.

Soc.

And at the hands of an agent?

Pol.

Yes, of course; at the hands of the punisher.

Soc.

And he who punishes aright punishes justly?

Pol.

Yes.

Soc.

Doing what is just, or not?

Pol.

What is just.

Soc.

And he who pays the penalty by being punished suffers what is just?

Pol.

Apparently.

Soc.

And what is just, I think we have agreed, is fair?

Pol.

Certainly.

Soc.

Then of these two, the one does what is fair and the other, he who is punished, suffers it.

Pol.

Yes.