Scaife ATLAS

CTS Library / Zeus the Tragedian

Zeus the Tragedian (39-41)

urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0062.tlg018.perseus-eng5:39-41
Refs {'start': {'reference': '39', 'human_reference': 'Section 39'}, 'end': {'reference': '41', 'human_reference': 'Section 41'}}
Ancestors []
Children []
prev
plain textXML
next
Timokles

For my part, I do not think that additional proof is necessary; but still I will go on. Answer me, do you consider Homer the best of poets?

Damis

Certainly.

Timokles

Well, he convinced me by setting forth the providence of the gods.

Damis

But, my astonishing friend, every one will grant you that Homer is a great poet, but not that he or any poet whatsoever is a reliable witness in these matters. For their concern, I imagine, is not for truth, but to charm their hearers; and on this account they lull us with metres and amuse us with stories, and devise the whole thing in the interests of pleasure. Still, I should be pleased to hear what passages of Homer chiefly convinced you.

Probably those in which he speaks of Zeus, and tells how his daughter and his brother and his wife plotted to put him in irons. And if Thetis had not perceived what was going on and called Briareos, our glorious Zeus would have been seized and tied up. It was in return for this and to repay his obligation to Thetis that he deceived Agamemnon by sending him a false dream for the destruction of many Greeks. Notice that he was unable to launch a thunderbolt

p.46
and burn up Agamemnon himself, but must assume the role of cheat. Or was conviction forced upon you chiefly when you heard how Diomedes wounded Aphrodite and then Ares himself at the suggestion of Athene, and how the gods themselves fell to after a little and fought duels indiscriminately, gods and goddesses together, and how Athene overcame Ares because, I imagine, he was weak from the wound he had already got from Diomedes, and
Hermes, the ready-helper, stoutly stood against Leto?
Or did the account of Artemis strike you as convincing, telling how her discontented nature was angered because Oineus did not ask her to his banquet, and how, accordingly, she let loose upon his land a certain boar of surpassing size and irresistible strength? Was it, then, by such narratives as these that Homer convinced you?

Zeus

Alas, alack! What an outcry the crowd made, deities, applauding Damis! And our man seems to have lost his head. He is frightened, certainly, and trembling, and on the point of throwing away his shield. He is already looking about for some loop-hole through which he can slip and make his escape.

Timokles

Perhaps you do not think that Euripides says anything sound, either, when he introduces the gods themselves upon the stage and shows them engaged in saving the good among

p.47
the heroes, but destroying the wicked and impiety like yours?

Damis

But, most illustrious of philosophers, if the dramatists have convinced you by such means as that, one of two things follows. Either you believe the actors to be for the moment gods, or else the divine masks themselves, and the shoes, and the tunics flowing to the feet, and the cloaks, and the loose sleeves, and the false paunches, and the padding, and all the rest of the apparatus which makes the tragedy impressive, which is most ridiculous, I think. But whenever Euripides speaks his own mind, unforced by the exigencies of the dramas, hear how bold he is:

You see this boundless aether spread on high,
Enfolding earth in damp, encircling arms?
Deem then that this is Zeus, believe this god.
and again,
Zeus,
Whoe'er Zeus is, for I know not, unless
By hearsay,
and other similar passages.

Tokens

Timokles 1 w 8
For 1 w 11
my 1 w 13
part 1 w 17
I 1 w 19
do 1 w 21
not 1 w 24
think 1 w 29
that 1 w 33
additional 1 w 43
proof 1 w 48
is 1 w 50
necessary 1 w 59
but 1 w 63
still 1 w 68
I 2 w 69
will 1 w 73
go 1 w 75
on 2 w 77
Answer 1 w 84
me 1 w 86
do 2 w 89
you 1 w 92
consider 1 w 100
Homer 1 w 105
the 1 w 108
best 1 w 112
of 2 w 114
poets 1 w 119
Damis 1 w 125
Certainly 1 w 134
Timokles 2 w 143
Well 1 w 147
he 2 w 150
convinced 1 w 159
me 3 w 161
by 1 w 163
setting 1 w 170
forth 1 w 175
the 2 w 178
providence 1 w 188
of 3 w 190
the 3 w 193
gods 1 w 197
Damis 2 w 203
But 1 w 206
my 2 w 209
astonishing 1 w 220
friend 1 w 226
every 1 w 232
one 1 w 235
will 2 w 239
grant 1 w 244
you 2 w 247
that 2 w 251
Homer 2 w 256
is 5 w 258
a 12 w 259
great 1 w 264
poet 2 w 268
but 2 w 272
not 2 w 275
that 3 w 279
he 5 w 281
or 3 w 283
any 1 w 286
poet 3 w 290
whatsoever 1 w 300
is 6 w 302
a 17 w 303
reliable 1 w 311
witness 1 w 318
in 6 w 320
these 1 w 325
matters 1 w 332
For 2 w 336
their 1 w 341
concern 1 w 348
I 3 w 350
imagine 1 w 357
is 7 w 360
not 3 w 363
for 2 w 366
truth 1 w 371
but 3 w 375
to 2 w 377
charm 1 w 382
their 2 w 387
hearers 1 w 394
and 1 w 398
on 8 w 400
this 1 w 404
account 1 w 411
they 1 w 415
lull 1 w 419
us 1 w 421
with 1 w 425
metres 1 w 431
and 2 w 434
amuse 1 w 439
us 3 w 441
with 2 w 445
stories 1 w 452
and 3 w 456
devise 1 w 462
the 8 w 465
whole 1 w 470
thing 1 w 475
in 9 w 477
the 9 w 480
interests 1 w 489
of 4 w 491
pleasure 1 w 499
Still 1 w 505
I 4 w 507
should 1 w 513
be 2 w 515
pleased 1 w 522
to 4 w 524
hear 2 w 528
what 2 w 532
passages 1 w 540
of 5 w 542
Homer 3 w 547
chiefly 1 w 554
convinced 2 w 563
you 3 w 566
Probably 1 w 575
those 1 w 580
in 12 w 582
which 1 w 587
he 14 w 589
speaks 1 w 595
of 6 w 597
Zeus 1 w 601
and 4 w 605
tells 1 w 610
how 1 w 613
his 2 w 616
daughter 1 w 624
and 5 w 627
his 3 w 630
brother 1 w 637
and 6 w 640
his 4 w 643
wife 1 w 647
plotted 1 w 654
to 5 w 656
put 1 w 659
him 1 w 662
in 13 w 664
irons 1 w 669
And 1 w 673
if 2 w 675
Thetis 1 w 681
had 1 w 684
not 4 w 687
perceived 1 w 696
what 3 w 700
was 1 w 703
going 1 w 708
on 11 w 710
and 7 w 713
called 1 w 719
Briareos 1 w 727
our 1 w 731
glorious 1 w 739
Zeus 2 w 743
would 1 w 748
have 1 w 752
been 1 w 756
seized 1 w 762
and 8 w 765
tied 1 w 769
up 1 w 771
It 1 w 774
was 2 w 777
in 15 w 779
return 1 w 785
for 3 w 788
this 2 w 792
and 9 w 795
to 6 w 797
repay 1 w 802
his 6 w 805
obligation 1 w 815
to 7 w 817
Thetis 2 w 823
that 4 w 827
he 18 w 829
deceived 1 w 837
Agamemnon 1 w 846
by 2 w 848
sending 1 w 855
him 2 w 858
a 54 w 859
false 1 w 864
dream 1 w 869
for 4 w 872
the 11 w 875
destruction 1 w 886
of 7 w 888
many 1 w 892
Greeks 1 w 898
Notice 1 w 905
that 5 w 909
he 20 w 911
was 3 w 914
unable 1 w 920
to 8 w 922
launch 1 w 928
a 62 w 929
thunderbolt 1 w 940
and 10 w 943
burn 1 w 947
up 2 w 949
Agamemnon 2 w 958
himself 1 w 965
but 4 w 969
must 1 w 973
assume 1 w 979
the 12 w 982
role 1 w 986
of 8 w 988
cheat 1 w 993
Or 1 w 996
was 4 w 999
conviction 1 w 1009
forced 1 w 1015
upon 1 w 1019
you 4 w 1022
chiefly 2 w 1029
when 1 w 1033
you 5 w 1036
heard 1 w 1041
how 2 w 1044
Diomedes 1 w 1052
wounded 1 w 1059
Aphrodite 1 w 1068
and 11 w 1071
then 1 w 1075
Ares 1 w 1079
himself 2 w 1086
at 13 w 1088
the 14 w 1091
suggestion 1 w 1101
of 9 w 1103
Athene 1 w 1109
and 12 w 1113
how 3 w 1116
the 16 w 1119
gods 2 w 1123
themselves 1 w 1133
fell 1 w 1137
to 9 w 1139
after 1 w 1144
a 73 w 1145
little 1 w 1151
and 13 w 1154
fought 1 w 1160
duels 1 w 1165
indiscriminately 1 w 1181
gods 3 w 1186
and 14 w 1189
goddesses 1 w 1198
together 1 w 1206
and 15 w 1210
how 4 w 1213
Athene 2 w 1219
overcame 1 w 1227
Ares 2 w 1231
because 1 w 1238
I 6 w 1240
imagine 2 w 1247
he 32 w 1250
was 5 w 1253
weak 1 w 1257
from 1 w 1261
the 20 w 1264
wound 2 w 1269
he 34 w 1271
had 2 w 1274
already 1 w 1281
got 1 w 1284
from 2 w 1288
Diomedes 2 w 1296
and 16 w 1300
Hermes 1 w 1306
the 21 w 1310
ready-helper 1 w 1322
stoutly 1 w 1330
stood 1 w 1335
against 1 w 1342
Leto 1 w 1346
Or 2 w 1349
did 1 w 1352
the 22 w 1355
account 2 w 1362
of 10 w 1364
Artemis 1 w 1371
strike 1 w 1377
you 6 w 1380
as 11 w 1382
convincing 1 w 1392
telling 1 w 1400
how 5 w 1403
her 3 w 1406
discontented 1 w 1418
nature 1 w 1424
was 6 w 1427
angered 1 w 1434
because 2 w 1441
Oineus 1 w 1447
did 2 w 1450
not 5 w 1453
ask 1 w 1456
her 4 w 1459
to 14 w 1461
his 7 w 1464
banquet 1 w 1471
and 17 w 1475
how 6 w 1478
accordingly 1 w 1490
she 1 w 1494
let 1 w 1497
loose 1 w 1502
upon 2 w 1506
his 8 w 1509
land 1 w 1513
a 101 w 1514
certain 1 w 1521
boar 1 w 1525
of 11 w 1527
surpassing 1 w 1537
size 1 w 1541
and 19 w 1544
irresistible 1 w 1556
strength 1 w 1564
Was 1 w 1568
it 7 w 1570
then 4 w 1575
by 3 w 1578
such 1 w 1582
narratives 1 w 1592
as 16 w 1594
these 2 w 1599
that 6 w 1603
Homer 4 w 1608
convinced 3 w 1617
you 7 w 1620
Zeus 3 w 1625
Alas 1 w 1629
alack 1 w 1635
What 1 w 1640
an 25 w 1642
outcry 1 w 1648
the 25 w 1651
crowd 1 w 1656
made 1 w 1660
deities 1 w 1668
applauding 1 w 1679
Damis 3 w 1684
And 2 w 1688
our 2 w 1691
man 2 w 1694
seems 1 w 1699
to 15 w 1701
have 2 w 1705
lost 1 w 1709
his 9 w 1712
head 1 w 1716
He 2 w 1719
is 25 w 1721
frightened 1 w 1731
certainly 1 w 1741
and 20 w 1745
trembling 1 w 1754
and 21 w 1758
on 24 w 1760
the 26 w 1763
point 1 w 1768
of 12 w 1770
throwing 1 w 1778
away 1 w 1782
his 10 w 1785
shield 1 w 1791
He 3 w 1794
is 27 w 1796
already 2 w 1803
looking 1 w 1810
about 1 w 1815
for 6 w 1818
some 1 w 1822
loop-hole 1 w 1831
through 1 w 1838
which 2 w 1843
he 46 w 1845
can 1 w 1848
slip 1 w 1852
and 22 w 1855
make 1 w 1859
his 11 w 1862
escape 1 w 1868
Timokles 3 w 1877
Perhaps 1 w 1884
you 8 w 1887
do 3 w 1889
not 6 w 1892
think 2 w 1897
that 7 w 1901
Euripides 1 w 1910
says 1 w 1914
anything 1 w 1922
sound 1 w 1927
either 1 w 1934
when 2 w 1939
he 49 w 1941
introduces 1 w 1951
the 28 w 1954
gods 4 w 1958
themselves 2 w 1968
upon 3 w 1972
the 30 w 1975
stage 1 w 1980
and 23 w 1983
shows 1 w 1988
them 3 w 1992
engaged 1 w 1999
in 38 w 2001
saving 1 w 2007
the 32 w 2010
good 1 w 2014
among 1 w 2019
the 33 w 2022
heroes 1 w 2028
but 5 w 2032
destroying 1 w 2042
the 34 w 2045
wicked 1 w 2051
and 24 w 2054
impiety 1 w 2061
like 1 w 2065
yours 1 w 2070
Damis 4 w 2076
But 2 w 2079
most 1 w 2084
illustrious 1 w 2095
of 13 w 2097
philosophers 1 w 2109
if 3 w 2112
the 35 w 2115
dramatists 1 w 2125
have 3 w 2129
convinced 4 w 2138
you 10 w 2141
by 4 w 2143
such 2 w 2147
means 1 w 2152
as 18 w 2154
that 8 w 2158
one 2 w 2162
of 14 w 2164
two 1 w 2167
things 1 w 2173
follows 1 w 2180
Either 1 w 2187
you 11 w 2190
believe 1 w 2197
the 37 w 2200
actors 1 w 2206
to 17 w 2208
be 7 w 2210
for 7 w 2213
the 38 w 2216
moment 1 w 2222
gods 5 w 2226
or 15 w 2229
else 1 w 2233
the 39 w 2236
divine 1 w 2242
masks 1 w 2247
themselves 3 w 2257
and 25 w 2261
the 41 w 2264
shoes 1 w 2269
and 26 w 2273
the 42 w 2276
tunics 1 w 2282
flowing 1 w 2289
to 18 w 2291
the 43 w 2294
feet 1 w 2298
and 27 w 2302
the 44 w 2305
cloaks 1 w 2311
and 28 w 2315
the 45 w 2318
loose 2 w 2323
sleeves 1 w 2330
and 29 w 2334
the 46 w 2337
false 2 w 2342
paunches 1 w 2350
and 30 w 2354
the 47 w 2357
padding 1 w 2364
and 31 w 2368
all 2 w 2371
the 48 w 2374
rest 2 w 2378
of 15 w 2380
the 49 w 2383
apparatus 1 w 2392
which 3 w 2397
makes 1 w 2402
the 50 w 2405
tragedy 1 w 2412
impressive 1 w 2422
which 4 w 2428
is 31 w 2430
most 2 w 2434
ridiculous 1 w 2444
I 7 w 2446
think 3 w 2451
But 3 w 2455
whenever 1 w 2463
Euripides 2 w 2472
speaks 2 w 2478
his 12 w 2481
own 1 w 2484
mind 1 w 2488
unforced 1 w 2497
by 5 w 2499
the 51 w 2502
exigencies 1 w 2512
of 16 w 2514
the 52 w 2517
dramas 1 w 2523
hear 4 w 2528
how 8 w 2531
bold 1 w 2535
he 80 w 2537
is 33 w 2539
You 1 w 2543
see 2 w 2546
this 3 w 2550
boundless 1 w 2559
aether 1 w 2565
spread 1 w 2571
on 29 w 2573
high 1 w 2577
Enfolding 1 w 2587
earth 1 w 2592
in 49 w 2594
damp 1 w 2598
encircling 1 w 2609
arms 1 w 2613
Deem 1 w 2618
then 5 w 2622
that 9 w 2626
this 4 w 2630
is 36 w 2632
Zeus 4 w 2636
believe 2 w 2644
this 5 w 2648
god 7 w 2651
and 32 w 2655
again 2 w 2660
Zeus 5 w 2665
Whoe 1 w 2670
er 35 w 2673
Zeus 6 w 2677
is 38 w 2679
for 9 w 2683
I 8 w 2684
know 1 w 2688
not 7 w 2691
unless 1 w 2698
By 1 w 2700
hearsay 1 w 2707
and 33 w 2711
other 2 w 2716
similar 1 w 2723
passages 2 w 2731