Gorgias (488)

Soc.

And on no themes could one make more honorable inquiry, Callicles, than on those which you have reproached me with—what character one should have,

and what should be one’s pursuits and up to what point, in later as in earlier years. For I assure you that if there is any fault of conduct to be found in my own life it is not an intentional error, but due to my ignorance: so I ask you not to break off in the middle of your task of admonishing me, but to make fully clear to me what it is that I ought to pursue and by what means I may attain it; and if you find me in agreement with you now, and afterwards failing to do what I agreed to, regard me as a regular dunce and never trouble any more to admonish me again—a mere good-for-nothing. Now, go right back and repeat to me what you and Pindar hold natural justice to consist in: is it that the superior should forcibly despoil the inferior, the better rule the worse, and the nobler have more than the meaner? Have you some other account to give of justice, or do I remember aright?

Call.

Why, that is what I said then, and I say it now also.

Soc.

Is it the same person that you call better and superior?

For I must say I was no more able then to understand what your meaning might be. Is it the stronger folk that you call superior, and are the weaker ones bound to hearken to the stronger one—as for instance I think you were also pointing out then, that the great states attack the little ones in accordance with natural right, because they are superior and stronger, on the ground that the superior and the stronger and the better are all the same thing; or is it possible to be better and yet inferior and weaker, and to be superior and yet more wicked? Or is the definition of the better and the superior the same? This is just what I bid you declare in definite terms—whether the superior and the better and the stronger are the same or different.

Call.

Well, I tell you plainly, they are all the same.

Soc.

Now, are the many superior by nature to the one? I mean those who make the laws to keep a check on the one, as you were saying yourself just now.

Call.

Of course.

Soc.

Then the ordinances of the many are those of the superior.

Call.

Certainly.

Soc.

And so of the better? For the superior are far better, by your account.

Call.

Yes.

Soc.

And so their ordinances are by nature fair, since they are superior who made them?

Call.

I agree.