Scaife ATLAS

Zeus the Tragedian (36-40)

urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0062.tlg018.perseus-eng5:36-40

Refs	`{'start': {'reference': '36', 'human_reference': 'Section 36'}, 'end': {'reference': '40', 'human_reference': 'Section 40'}}`
Ancestors	`[]`
Children	`[]`

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Timokles

Very well. Tell me, then, is it your opinion, accursed wretch, that the gods exert no providence?

Damis

They do not.

Timokles

What, is the universe, then, not the result of design?

Damis

It is not.

Timokles

And did no god arrange the whole superintendence of things either?

p.43

Damis

No.

Timokles

But all things are borne along haphazard by an unreasoning current?

Damis

Yes.

Timokles

Now can you men endure to hear this and not stone the guilty wretch?

Damis

Why do you stir up the audience against me, Timokles? And who are you to show anger in the gods' behalf when they are not angry themselves? At least they have not handled me roughly, though they have heard me for a long time, supposing they do hear.

Timokles

They hear, Damis, they hear, and they will take vengeance on you some day.

Damis

And when would they have leisure for my case if, as you say, they are full of cares, managing the universe, infinite as it is? That is the reason they have not yet even punished you for your continual perjuries and your other crimes, which I will not specify lest I should be driven to use abusive language myself, contrary to our agreement. And yet I do not see how they could produce better proof of their own providence than by bringing your bad life to a bad end. But clearly they have gone abroad, across the ocean, perchance to visit the "blameless Ethiopians." At least it is their habit to go constantly to dine with them, and sometimes on their own invitation.

p.44

Timokles

What shall I say in reply to such shameless effrontery?

Damis

What I have been yearning to hear from you this long time: how you came to believe in the providence of the gods.

Timokles

I was convinced of it first by the order of natural events: the sun who always travels the same road and the moon similarly, and the recurring seasons, and the growth of plants, and the birth of animals, and these animals themselves so ingeniously contrived that they feed themselves and reason, and move about and walk, and build houses and make shoes, and all the rest of it. Do not these seem to you the works of providence?

Damis

Why, Timokles, you have assumed the very question in dispute, for it remains to be seen. whether each of these is accomplished by providence. That natural events are such as you describe I, too, admit, but it does not follow of necessity that they owe their existence to any intelligent foresight. For it is possible that they had some other origin, and yet have now a consistent and methodical existence. But this forced action of theirs you call 'order,' and then, forsooth, you fly into a rage if some one rejects your argument when, after recounting and praising the nature of objects, you go on to believe that this is a proof that each of them is also put in its

p.45

place by providence. Wherefore, in the words of the comic poet,

This is too feeble, tell me something else.

Timokles

For my part, I do not think that additional proof is necessary; but still I will go on. Answer me, do you consider Homer the best of poets?

Damis

Certainly.

Timokles

Well, he convinced me by setting forth the providence of the gods.

Damis

But, my astonishing friend, every one will grant you that Homer is a great poet, but not that he or any poet whatsoever is a reliable witness in these matters. For their concern, I imagine, is not for truth, but to charm their hearers; and on this account they lull us with metres and amuse us with stories, and devise the whole thing in the interests of pleasure. Still, I should be pleased to hear what passages of Homer chiefly convinced you.

Probably those in which he speaks of Zeus, and tells how his daughter and his brother and his wife plotted to put him in irons. And if Thetis had not perceived what was going on and called Briareos, our glorious Zeus would have been seized and tied up. It was in return for this and to repay his obligation to Thetis that he deceived Agamemnon by sending him a false dream for the destruction of many Greeks. Notice that he was unable to launch a thunderbolt

p.46

and burn up Agamemnon himself, but must assume the role of cheat. Or was conviction forced upon you chiefly when you heard how Diomedes wounded Aphrodite and then Ares himself at the suggestion of Athene, and how the gods themselves fell to after a little and fought duels indiscriminately, gods and goddesses together, and how Athene overcame Ares because, I imagine, he was weak from the wound he had already got from Diomedes, and

Hermes, the ready-helper, stoutly stood against Leto?

Or did the account of Artemis strike you as convincing, telling how her discontented nature was angered because Oineus did not ask her to his banquet, and how, accordingly, she let loose upon his land a certain boar of surpassing size and irresistible strength? Was it, then, by such narratives as these that Homer convinced you?

Tokens

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and	27	w	3070
called	1	w	3076
Briareos	1	w	3084
our	7	w	3088
glorious	1	w	3096
Zeus	2	w	3100
would	2	w	3105
have	9	w	3109
been	2	w	3113
seized	1	w	3119
and	28	w	3122
tied	1	w	3126
up	4	w	3128
It	2	w	3131
was	3	w	3134
in	47	w	3136
return	1	w	3142
for	11	w	3145
this	6	w	3149
and	29	w	3152
to	25	w	3154
repay	1	w	3159
his	11	w	3162
obligation	1	w	3172
to	26	w	3174
Thetis	2	w	3180
that	10	w	3184
he	93	w	3186
deceived	1	w	3194
Agamemnon	1	w	3203
by	7	w	3205
sending	1	w	3212
him	2	w	3215
a	214	w	3216
false	1	w	3221
dream	1	w	3226
for	12	w	3229
the	71	w	3232
destruction	1	w	3243
of	26	w	3245
many	1	w	3249
Greeks	1	w	3255
Notice	1	w	3262
that	11	w	3266
he	95	w	3268
was	4	w	3271
unable	1	w	3277
to	27	w	3279
launch	1	w	3285
a	222	w	3286
thunderbolt	1	w	3297
and	30	w	3300
burn	1	w	3304
up	5	w	3306
Agamemnon	2	w	3315
himself	1	w	3322
but	5	w	3326
must	1	w	3330
assume	2	w	3336
the	72	w	3339
role	1	w	3343
of	27	w	3345
cheat	1	w	3350
Or	1	w	3353
was	5	w	3356
conviction	1	w	3366
forced	2	w	3372
upon	1	w	3376
you	23	w	3379
chiefly	2	w	3386
when	4	w	3390
you	24	w	3393
heard	2	w	3398
how	5	w	3401
Diomedes	1	w	3409
wounded	1	w	3416
Aphrodite	1	w	3425
and	31	w	3428
then	4	w	3432
Ares	1	w	3436
himself	2	w	3443
at	28	w	3445
the	74	w	3448
suggestion	1	w	3458
of	28	w	3460
Athene	1	w	3466
and	32	w	3470
how	6	w	3473
the	76	w	3476
gods	5	w	3480
themselves	4	w	3490
fell	1	w	3494
to	28	w	3496
after	2	w	3501
a	233	w	3502
little	1	w	3508
and	33	w	3511
fought	1	w	3517
duels	1	w	3522
indiscriminately	1	w	3538
gods	6	w	3543
and	34	w	3546
goddesses	1	w	3555
together	1	w	3563
and	35	w	3567
how	7	w	3570
Athene	2	w	3576
overcame	1	w	3584
Ares	2	w	3588
because	1	w	3595
I	14	w	3597
imagine	2	w	3604
he	107	w	3607
was	6	w	3610
weak	1	w	3614
from	2	w	3618
the	80	w	3621
wound	2	w	3626
he	109	w	3628
had	3	w	3631
already	1	w	3638
got	1	w	3641
from	3	w	3645
Diomedes	2	w	3653
and	36	w	3657
Hermes	1	w	3663
the	81	w	3667
ready-helper	1	w	3679
stoutly	1	w	3687
stood	1	w	3692
against	2	w	3699
Leto	1	w	3703
Or	2	w	3706
did	2	w	3709
the	82	w	3712
account	2	w	3719
of	29	w	3721
Artemis	1	w	3728
strike	1	w	3734
you	25	w	3737
as	23	w	3739
convincing	1	w	3749
telling	1	w	3757
how	8	w	3760
her	8	w	3763
discontented	1	w	3775
nature	2	w	3781
was	7	w	3784
angered	1	w	3791
because	2	w	3798
Oineus	1	w	3804
did	3	w	3807
not	16	w	3810
ask	1	w	3813
her	9	w	3816
to	33	w	3818
his	12	w	3821
banquet	1	w	3828
and	37	w	3832
how	9	w	3835
accordingly	1	w	3847
she	3	w	3851
let	1	w	3854
loose	1	w	3859
upon	2	w	3863
his	13	w	3866
land	1	w	3870
a	261	w	3871
certain	1	w	3878
boar	1	w	3882
of	30	w	3884
surpassing	1	w	3894
size	1	w	3898
and	39	w	3901
irresistible	1	w	3913
strength	1	w	3921
Was	1	w	3925
it	24	w	3927
then	7	w	3932
by	8	w	3935
such	3	w	3939
narratives	1	w	3949
as	28	w	3951
these	5	w	3956
that	12	w	3960
Homer	4	w	3965
convinced	4	w	3974
you	26	w	3977