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Zeus Catechized (11-15)

urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0062.tlg017.perseus-eng2:11-15
Refs {'start': {'reference': '11', 'human_reference': 'Section 11'}, 'end': {'reference': '15', 'human_reference': 'Section 15'}}
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ZEUS

By no means, but Fate does it all through us.

CYNISCUS

I understand; you allege that you are servants and assistants of the Fates. But even at that, the providence would be theirs, and you are only their instruments and tools, as it were.

ZEUS

What do you mean?

CYNISCUS

You are in the same case, I suppose, as the adze and the drill of the carpenter, which help him somewhat in his craft, and yet no one would say that they are the craftsman or that the ship is the work of the adze or the drill, but of the shipwright. Well, in like manner it is Destiny who does all the building and you at most are only drills and adzes of the Fates, and I believe men ought to sacrifice to Destiny and ask their blessings from her instead of going to you and exalting you with processions and sacrifices. But no: even if they honoured Destiny they would not be doing so to any purpose, for I dont suppose it is possible even for the Fates themselves to alter or reverse any of their original decrees about each man. Atropos, at all events, would not put up with it if anyone should turn the spindle backwards and undo the work of Clotho. [*]

v.2.p.77
ZEUS

Have you gone so far, Cyniscus, as to think that even the Fates should not be honoured by men? Why, you seem inclined to upset everything. As for us gods, if for no other reason, we may fairly be honoured because we are soothsayers and foretell all that the Fates have established.

CYNISCUS

On the whole, Zeus, it does no good to have foreknowledge of future events when people are completely unable to guard against them,—unless perhaps you maintain that a man who knows in advance that he is to die by an iron spear-head can escape death by shutting himself up? No, it is impossible, for Fate will take him out hunting and deliver him up to the spear-head, and Adrastus, throwing his weapon at the boar, will miss it and slay the son of Croesus, as if the javelin were sped at the lad by a powerful cast of the Fates.[*]

CYNISCUS

Indeed, the oracle of Laius is really ridiculous:

Sow not the birth-field in the gods despite,
For if thou getst, thy son will lay thee low.
Euripides, Phoenissae, 18-19 It was superfluous, I take it, to caution against what was bound to be so in any event. Consequently after the oracle he sowed his seed and his son laid him low. I dont see, therefore, on what ground you demand your fee for making prophecies.

CYNISCUS

I say nothing of the fact that you are accustomed to give most people perplexed and ambiguous responses, not making it at all clear whether the man who

v.2.p.79
crosses the Halys will cause the loss of his own kingdom or that of Cyrus; for the oracle can be taken in either sense.[*]

ZEUS

Apollo had some reason for being angry at Croesus because he had tested him by stewing lamb and turtle together.[*]

CYNISCUS

He should not have been angry, being a god. However, the very deception of the Lydian was predetermined, I suppose, and in general our lack of definite information about the future is due to the spindle of Destiny; so even your soothsaying is in her province.

ZEUS

Then you leave nothing for us, and we are gods to no purpose, not contributing any providence to the world and not deserving our sacrifices, like drills or adzes in very truth? Indeed, it seems to me that you scorn me with reason, because although, as_ you see, I have a thunderbolt clenched in my hand, I am letting you say all this against us.

CYNISCUS

Strike, Zeus, if it is fated that I am really to be struck by lightning, and I wont blame you for the stroke but Clotho, who inflicts the injury through

v.2.p.81
you; for even the thunderbolt itself, I should say, would not be the cause of the injury. There is another question, however, which I will put to you and to Destiny, and you can answer for her. You have put me in mind of it by your threat.

Tokens

ZEUS 1 w 4
By 1 w 6
no 1 w 8
means 1 w 13
but 1 w 17
Fate 1 w 21
does 1 w 25
it 1 w 27
all 1 w 30
through 1 w 37
us 1 w 39
CYNISCUS 1 w 48
I 2 w 49
understand 1 w 59
you 1 w 63
allege 1 w 69
that 1 w 73
you 2 w 76
are 1 w 79
servants 1 w 87
and 2 w 90
assistants 1 w 100
of 1 w 102
the 1 w 105
Fates 1 w 110
But 1 w 114
even 1 w 118
at 4 w 120
that 2 w 124
the 2 w 128
providence 1 w 138
would 1 w 143
be 1 w 145
theirs 1 w 151
and 3 w 155
you 3 w 158
are 2 w 161
only 1 w 165
their 2 w 170
instruments 1 w 181
and 4 w 184
tools 1 w 189
as 2 w 192
it 2 w 194
were 1 w 198
ZEUS 2 w 203
What 1 w 207
do 2 w 209
you 4 w 212
mean 2 w 216
CYNISCUS 2 w 225
You 1 w 228
are 3 w 231
in 2 w 233
the 5 w 236
same 1 w 240
case 1 w 244
I 4 w 246
suppose 1 w 253
as 4 w 256
the 6 w 259
adze 1 w 263
and 5 w 266
the 7 w 269
drill 1 w 274
of 2 w 276
the 8 w 279
carpenter 1 w 288
which 1 w 294
help 1 w 298
him 1 w 301
somewhat 1 w 309
in 3 w 311
his 1 w 314
craft 1 w 319
and 6 w 323
yet 1 w 326
no 2 w 328
one 1 w 331
would 2 w 336
say 1 w 339
that 3 w 343
they 1 w 347
are 4 w 350
the 10 w 353
craftsman 1 w 362
or 1 w 364
that 4 w 368
the 11 w 371
ship 1 w 375
is 3 w 377
the 12 w 380
work 1 w 384
of 3 w 386
the 13 w 389
adze 2 w 393
or 3 w 395
the 14 w 398
drill 2 w 403
but 2 w 407
of 4 w 409
the 15 w 412
shipwright 1 w 422
Well 1 w 427
in 4 w 430
like 1 w 434
manner 1 w 440
it 3 w 442
is 4 w 444
Destiny 1 w 451
who 1 w 454
does 2 w 458
all 3 w 461
the 16 w 464
building 1 w 472
and 7 w 475
you 5 w 478
at 10 w 480
most 1 w 484
are 5 w 487
only 2 w 491
drills 1 w 497
and 8 w 500
adzes 1 w 505
of 5 w 507
the 17 w 510
Fates 2 w 515
and 9 w 519
I 5 w 520
believe 1 w 527
men 2 w 530
ought 1 w 535
to 2 w 537
sacrifice 1 w 546
to 3 w 548
Destiny 2 w 555
and 10 w 558
ask 1 w 561
their 3 w 566
blessings 1 w 575
from 1 w 580
her 1 w 583
instead 1 w 590
of 6 w 592
going 1 w 597
to 4 w 599
you 6 w 602
and 11 w 605
exalting 1 w 613
you 7 w 616
with 1 w 620
processions 1 w 631
and 12 w 634
sacrifices 1 w 644
But 2 w 648
no 3 w 650
even 2 w 655
if 3 w 657
they 2 w 661
honoured 1 w 669
Destiny 3 w 676
they 3 w 680
would 3 w 685
not 1 w 688
be 3 w 690
doing 1 w 695
so 2 w 697
to 5 w 699
any 1 w 702
purpose 1 w 709
for 1 w 713
I 6 w 714
don 1 w 717
t 69 w 719
suppose 2 w 726
it 5 w 728
is 5 w 730
possible 1 w 738
even 3 w 742
for 2 w 745
the 21 w 748
Fates 3 w 753
themselves 1 w 763
to 6 w 765
alter 1 w 770
or 6 w 772
reverse 1 w 779
any 2 w 782
of 7 w 784
their 4 w 789
original 1 w 797
decrees 1 w 804
about 1 w 809
each 1 w 813
man 3 w 816
Atropos 1 w 824
at 13 w 827
all 4 w 830
events 1 w 836
would 4 w 842
not 2 w 845
put 1 w 848
up 3 w 850
with 2 w 854
it 7 w 856
if 4 w 858
anyone 1 w 864
should 1 w 870
turn 1 w 874
the 24 w 877
spindle 1 w 884
backwards 1 w 893
and 13 w 896
undo 1 w 900
the 25 w 903
work 2 w 907
of 8 w 909
Clotho 1 w 915
play 1 w 920
upon 1 w 924
the 26 w 927
name 1 w 931
Atropos 2 w 938
as 6 w 941
if 5 w 943
it 8 w 945
meant 1 w 950
Turnethnot 1 w 961
ZEUS 3 w 967
Have 1 w 971
you 8 w 974
gone 1 w 978
so 3 w 980
far 1 w 983
Cyniscus 1 w 992
as 7 w 995
to 7 w 997
think 1 w 1002
that 5 w 1006
even 5 w 1010
the 27 w 1013
Fates 4 w 1018
should 2 w 1024
not 4 w 1027
be 4 w 1029
honoured 2 w 1037
by 1 w 1039
men 3 w 1042
Why 1 w 1046
you 9 w 1050
seem 1 w 1054
inclined 1 w 1062
to 8 w 1064
upset 1 w 1069
everything 1 w 1079
As 1 w 1082
for 3 w 1085
us 3 w 1087
gods 1 w 1091
if 6 w 1094
for 4 w 1097
no 10 w 1099
other 1 w 1104
reason 1 w 1110
we 2 w 1113
may 1 w 1116
fairly 1 w 1122
be 5 w 1124
honoured 3 w 1132
because 1 w 1139
we 3 w 1141
are 6 w 1144
soothsayers 1 w 1155
and 14 w 1158
foretell 1 w 1166
all 5 w 1169
that 6 w 1173
the 29 w 1176
Fates 5 w 1181
have 1 w 1185
established 1 w 1196
CYNISCUS 3 w 1205
On 1 w 1207
the 30 w 1210
whole 1 w 1215
Zeus 1 w 1220
it 9 w 1223
does 3 w 1227
no 12 w 1229
good 1 w 1233
to 9 w 1235
have 2 w 1239
foreknowledge 1 w 1252
of 9 w 1254
future 1 w 1260
events 2 w 1266
when 1 w 1270
people 1 w 1276
are 7 w 1279
completely 1 w 1289
unable 1 w 1295
to 10 w 1297
guard 1 w 1302
against 1 w 1309
them 2 w 1313
unless 1 w 1321
perhaps 1 w 1328
you 10 w 1331
maintain 1 w 1339
that 7 w 1343
a 100 w 1344
man 4 w 1347
who 3 w 1350
knows 1 w 1355
in 23 w 1357
advance 1 w 1364
that 8 w 1368
he 36 w 1370
is 8 w 1372
to 11 w 1374
die 1 w 1377
by 2 w 1379
an 28 w 1381
iron 1 w 1385
spear-head 1 w 1395
can 1 w 1398
escape 1 w 1404
death 1 w 1409
by 3 w 1411
shutting 1 w 1419
himself 1 w 1426
up 6 w 1428
No 1 w 1431
it 10 w 1434
is 9 w 1436
impossible 1 w 1446
for 7 w 1450
Fate 7 w 1454
will 1 w 1458
take 1 w 1462
him 3 w 1465
out 2 w 1468
hunting 1 w 1475
and 15 w 1478
deliver 1 w 1485
him 4 w 1488
up 7 w 1490
to 12 w 1492
the 32 w 1495
spear-head 2 w 1505
and 16 w 1509
Adrastus 1 w 1517
throwing 1 w 1526
his 2 w 1529
weapon 1 w 1535
at 22 w 1537
the 33 w 1540
boar 1 w 1544
will 2 w 1549
miss 1 w 1553
it 11 w 1555
and 17 w 1558
slay 1 w 1562
the 34 w 1565
son 2 w 1568
of 10 w 1570
Croesus 1 w 1577
as 10 w 1580
if 7 w 1582
the 35 w 1585
javelin 1 w 1592
were 2 w 1596
sped 1 w 1600
at 23 w 1602
the 36 w 1605
lad 1 w 1608
by 4 w 1610
a 127 w 1611
powerful 1 w 1619
cast 1 w 1623
of 11 w 1625
the 37 w 1628
Fates 6 w 1633
See 1 w 1637
Herodotus 1 w 1646
1 1 w 1648
34 1 w 1651
ff 1 w 1653
CYNISCUS 4 w 1662
Indeed 1 w 1668
the 38 w 1672
oracle 1 w 1678
of 12 w 1680
Laius 1 w 1685
is 12 w 1687
really 1 w 1693
ridiculous 1 w 1703
Sow 1 w 1707
not 5 w 1710
the 39 w 1713
birth-field 1 w 1724
in 28 w 1726
the 40 w 1729
gods 2 w 1733
despite 1 w 1741
For 1 w 1745
if 8 w 1747
thou 1 w 1751
get 1 w 1754
st 13 w 1757
thy 1 w 1761
son 3 w 1764
will 3 w 1768
lay 3 w 1771
thee 1 w 1775
low 1 w 1778
Euripides 1 w 1788
Phoenissae 1 w 1799
18-19 1 w 1805
It 1 w 1807
was 1 w 1810
superfluous 1 w 1821
I 11 w 1823
take 2 w 1827
it 13 w 1829
to 13 w 1832
caution 1 w 1839
against 2 w 1846
what 2 w 1850
was 2 w 1853
bound 1 w 1858
to 14 w 1860
be 7 w 1862
so 8 w 1864
in 30 w 1866
any 4 w 1869
event 3 w 1874
Consequently 1 w 1887
after 1 w 1892
the 42 w 1895
oracle 2 w 1901
he 50 w 1903
sowed 1 w 1908
his 3 w 1911
seed 1 w 1915
and 18 w 1918
his 4 w 1921
son 4 w 1924
laid 1 w 1928
him 5 w 1931
low 2 w 1934
I 12 w 1936
don 2 w 1939
t 174 w 1941
see 3 w 1944
therefore 1 w 1954
on 21 w 1957
what 3 w 1961
ground 1 w 1967
you 11 w 1970
demand 1 w 1976
your 1 w 1980
fee 1 w 1983
for 9 w 1986
making 1 w 1992
prophecies 1 w 2002
CYNISCUS 5 w 2011
I 14 w 2012
say 3 w 2015
nothing 1 w 2022
of 13 w 2024
the 44 w 2027
fact 1 w 2031
that 9 w 2035
you 13 w 2038
are 8 w 2041
accustomed 1 w 2051
to 16 w 2053
give 1 w 2057
most 2 w 2061
people 2 w 2067
perplexed 1 w 2076
and 20 w 2079
ambiguous 1 w 2088
responses 1 w 2097
not 7 w 2101
making 2 w 2107
it 14 w 2109
at 28 w 2111
all 7 w 2114
clear 1 w 2119
whether 1 w 2126
the 46 w 2129
man 6 w 2132
who 4 w 2135
crosses 1 w 2142
the 47 w 2145
Halys 1 w 2150
will 4 w 2154
cause 2 w 2159
the 48 w 2162
loss 1 w 2166
of 14 w 2168
his 5 w 2171
own 1 w 2174
kingdom 1 w 2181
or 19 w 2183
that 10 w 2187
of 15 w 2189
Cyrus 1 w 2194
for 10 w 2198
the 49 w 2201
oracle 3 w 2207
can 2 w 2210
be 8 w 2212
taken 1 w 2217
in 35 w 2219
either 1 w 2225
sense 1 w 2230
It 2 w 2233
ran 1 w 2236
If 1 w 2239
Croesus 2 w 2246
doth 1 w 2250
the 51 w 2253
Halys 2 w 2258
cross 2 w 2263
He 2 w 2265
ll 17 w 2268
cause 3 w 2273
a 171 w 2274
mighty 1 w 2280
kingdom 2 w 2287
s 166 w 2289
loss 2 w 2293
ZEUS 4 w 2298
Apollo 1 w 2304
had 1 w 2307
some 2 w 2311
reason 2 w 2317
for 11 w 2320
being 1 w 2325
angry 1 w 2330
at 30 w 2332
Croesus 3 w 2339
because 2 w 2346
he 62 w 2348
had 2 w 2351
tested 1 w 2357
him 6 w 2360
by 5 w 2362
stewing 1 w 2369
lamb 1 w 2373
and 21 w 2376
turtle 1 w 2382
together 1 w 2390
Wishing 1 w 2398
to 18 w 2400
test 2 w 2404
the 53 w 2407
Greek 1 w 2412
oracles 1 w 2419
before 1 w 2425
consulting 1 w 2435
them 3 w 2439
about 2 w 2444
invading 1 w 2452
Persia 1 w 2458
Croesus 4 w 2466
sent 1 w 2470
representatives 1 w 2485
to 19 w 2487
some 3 w 2491
of 16 w 2493
the 55 w 2496
most 3 w 2500
famous 1 w 2506
with 3 w 2510
instructions 1 w 2522
to 20 w 2524
ask 2 w 2527
them 4 w 2531
all 8 w 2534
simultaneously 1 w 2548
at 32 w 2551
a 190 w 2552
specified 1 w 2561
time 1 w 2566
What 2 w 2572
is 18 w 2574
Croesus 5 w 2581
doing 2 w 2586
now 3 w 2589
Apollo 2 w 2597
divined 1 w 2604
that 11 w 2608
he 68 w 2610
was 3 w 2613
stewing 2 w 2620
lamb 2 w 2624
and 22 w 2627
turtle 2 w 2633
together 2 w 2641
in 47 w 2643
a 196 w 2644
copper 1 w 2650
cauldron 1 w 2658
with 4 w 2662
a 198 w 2663
lid 1 w 2666
of 17 w 2668
copper 2 w 2674
Herodotus 2 w 2684
i 149 w 2686
46 1 w 2689
ff 2 w 2691
CYNISCUS 6 w 2702
He 4 w 2704
should 3 w 2710
not 8 w 2713
have 3 w 2717
been 1 w 2721
angry 2 w 2726
being 2 w 2732
a 201 w 2733
god 3 w 2736
However 1 w 2744
the 58 w 2748
very 2 w 2752
deception 1 w 2761
of 18 w 2763
the 59 w 2766
Lydian 1 w 2772
was 4 w 2775
predetermined 1 w 2788
I 18 w 2790
suppose 3 w 2797
and 23 w 2801
in 50 w 2803
general 1 w 2810
our 5 w 2813
lack 1 w 2817
of 19 w 2819
definite 1 w 2827
information 1 w 2838
about 3 w 2843
the 60 w 2846
future 2 w 2852
is 19 w 2854
due 1 w 2857
to 22 w 2859
the 61 w 2862
spindle 2 w 2869
of 20 w 2871
Destiny 4 w 2878
so 14 w 2881
even 8 w 2885
your 2 w 2889
soothsaying 1 w 2900
is 20 w 2902
in 56 w 2904
her 8 w 2907
province 1 w 2915
ZEUS 5 w 2920
Then 1 w 2924
you 15 w 2927
leave 1 w 2932
nothing 2 w 2939
for 14 w 2942
us 25 w 2944
and 24 w 2948
we 9 w 2950
are 9 w 2953
gods 3 w 2957
to 23 w 2959
no 21 w 2961
purpose 2 w 2968
not 10 w 2972
contributing 1 w 2984
any 5 w 2987
providence 2 w 2997
to 24 w 2999
the 62 w 3002
world 1 w 3007
and 25 w 3010
not 11 w 3013
deserving 1 w 3022
our 7 w 3025
sacrifices 2 w 3035
like 2 w 3040
drills 2 w 3046
or 28 w 3048
adzes 2 w 3053
in 61 w 3055
very 3 w 3059
truth 1 w 3064
Indeed 2 w 3071
it 19 w 3074
seems 1 w 3079
to 25 w 3081
me 14 w 3083
that 12 w 3087
you 16 w 3090
scorn 1 w 3095
me 15 w 3097
with 5 w 3101
reason 3 w 3107
because 3 w 3115
although 1 w 3123
as_ 1 w 3127
you 17 w 3130
see 5 w 3133
I 20 w 3135
have 4 w 3139
a 223 w 3140
thunderbolt 1 w 3151
clenched 1 w 3159
in 62 w 3161
my 1 w 3163
hand 1 w 3167
I 21 w 3169
am 7 w 3171
letting 1 w 3178
you 18 w 3181
say 5 w 3184
all 9 w 3187
this 1 w 3191
against 3 w 3198
us 27 w 3200
CYNISCUS 7 w 3209
Strike 1 w 3215
Zeus 2 w 3220
if 11 w 3223
it 21 w 3225
is 22 w 3227
fated 1 w 3232
that 13 w 3236
I 23 w 3237
am 8 w 3239
really 2 w 3245
to 26 w 3247
be 15 w 3249
struck 1 w 3255
by 6 w 3257
lightning 1 w 3266
and 27 w 3270
I 24 w 3271
won 1 w 3274
t 284 w 3276
blame 1 w 3281
you 19 w 3284
for 15 w 3287
the 63 w 3290
stroke 1 w 3296
but 4 w 3299
Clotho 2 w 3305
who 5 w 3309
inflicts 1 w 3317
the 64 w 3320
injury 1 w 3326
through 2 w 3333
you 20 w 3336
for 16 w 3340
even 9 w 3344
the 65 w 3347
thunderbolt 2 w 3358
itself 1 w 3364
I 25 w 3366
should 4 w 3372
say 6 w 3375
would 5 w 3381
not 12 w 3384
be 16 w 3386
the 66 w 3389
cause 6 w 3394
of 21 w 3396
the 67 w 3399
injury 2 w 3405
There 1 w 3411
is 23 w 3413
another 1 w 3420
question 1 w 3428
however 1 w 3436
which 2 w 3442
I 26 w 3443
will 5 w 3447
put 2 w 3450
to 27 w 3452
you 21 w 3455
and 28 w 3458
to 28 w 3460
Destiny 5 w 3467
and 29 w 3471
you 22 w 3474
can 3 w 3477
answer 1 w 3483
for 17 w 3486
her 11 w 3489
You 2 w 3493
have 5 w 3497
put 3 w 3500
me 17 w 3502
in 70 w 3504
mind 1 w 3508
of 22 w 3510
it 23 w 3512
by 7 w 3514
your 3 w 3518
threat 1 w 3524