Lesser Hippias (363-367)

Eud.

Why, then, are you silent, Socrates, when Hippias has been delivering such a fine display? Why do you not join us in praising some part of his speech, or else, if he seems to you to have been wrong in any point, refute him—especially now that we who might best claim to have a share in philosophical discussion have been left to ourselves?

Soc.

Indeed, Eudicus, there are some points in what Hippias was just now saying of Homer,

about which I should like to question him. For I used to hear your father Apemantus say that Homer’s Iliad was a finer poem than the Odyssey, and just as much finer as Achilles was finer than Odysseus for he said that one of these poems was made with Odysseus; the other with Achilles as its subject. So that is a point about which, if it is agreeable to Hippias, I should like to ask—what he thinks about these two men, which of them he says is the better; for he has told us in his exhibition many other things of sorts about Homer and other poets.

Eud.

It is plain enough that Hippias will not object answering if you ask him a question. Oh, Hippias, if Socrates asks you a question, will you answer? or what will you do?

Hipp.

Why, Eudicus, it would be strange conduct on my part, if I, who always go up to Olympia to the festival of the Greeks from my home at Elis, and entering the sacred precinct, offer to speak on anything that anyone chooses of those subjects

which I prepared for exhibition, and to answer any questions that anyone asks—should now avoid being questioned by Socrates.

Soc.

You are in a state of blessedness, Hippias, if at every Olympiad you come to the sanctuary with fair hopes concerning your soul and its wisdom; and I should be surprised if any of the physical athletes when he goes to that same place to take part in the contests, has such fearless confidence in his body as you have in your intellect.

Hipp.

Naturally, Socrates, I am in this state: for since I began to contend at the Olympic games, I never yet met anyone better than myself in anything.

Soc.

That is splendid, Hippias! Your reputation will be a monument of wisdom for the city of Elis and your parents.

But now what do you say about Achilles and Odysseus? Which do you say is the better and in what respect? For when there were many of us in the room, and you were making your exhibition, I could not keep up with what you were saying: for I hesitated to ask questions, because there was a great crowd in the room, also for fear of hindering your exhibition by doing so; but now, since we are fewer and Eudicus here urges me to question you, speak and tell us clearly what you said about these two men; how did you distinguish them?

Hipp.

Why I am glad, Socrates, to explain to you still more clearly what I say about these and others also. For I say that Homer made Achilles the bravest man of those who went to Troy, and Nestor the wisest, and Odysseus the wiliest.

Soc.

Oh dear, Hippias! Would you do me the favour not to laugh at me if I find it hard to understand what you say, and keep asking questions over and over?

Please try to answer me gently and courteously.

Hipp.

Of course; for it would be a disgrace, Socrates, if I, who teach others good manners and charge them money for it, should not myself, when questioned by you, be considerate and reply gently.

Soc.

That is excellent. For when you said that the poet made Achilles the bravest of men, and Nestor the wisest, I thought I understood what you meant;

but when you said that he made Odysseus the wiliest, to tell you the truth, I do not in the least know what you mean by that. Now tell me, and perhaps it may result in my understanding better. Has not Homer made Achilles wily?

Hipp.

Not at all, Socrates; he made him most simple; for in The Prayers, when he depicts them talking with one another, he makes Achilles say to Odysseus: [*]

Zeus-born son of Laertes, wily Odysseus, I must speak out the word without refraining, as I shall act and think will be accomplished and pray do not mutter in discord sitting here beside me. For hateful to me as the gates of Hades

is he who hides one thing in his heart and says another. But I shall speak that which shall be accomplished.

Hom. Il. 308 ff.In these lines he makes plain the character of each of the men, that Achilles is true and simple, and Odysseus wily and false for he represents Achilles as saying these lines to Odysseus.

Soc.

Now at last, Hippias, I think I understand what you mean; you mean that the wily man is false, apparently.

Hipp.

Certainly, Socrates; for Homer represents Odysseus as that sort of a man in many passages of both Iliad and Odyssey.

Soc.

Homer, then, as it seems, thought that a true man was one man and a false man another, but not the same.

Hipp.

Of course he did, Socrates.

Soc.

And do you think so yourself, Hippias?

Hipp.

Most assuredly; for it would be strange if I did not.

Soc.

Then let us drop Homer,

since it is impossible to ask him what he meant when he made those verses; but since you come forward to take up his cause, and agree in this which you say is his meaning, do you answer for Homer and yourself in common.

Hipp.

Very well; ask briefly whatever you like.

Soc.

Do you say that the false are, like the sick, without power to do anything, or that they have power to do something?

Hipp.

I say that they have great power to do many things, and especially to deceive people.

Soc.

They are, then, powerful, according to you, and wily, are they not?

Hipp.

Yes.

Soc.

But are they wily and deceivers by reason of simplicity and folly, or by reason of shrewdness and a sort of intelligence?

Hipp.

By shrewdness, most assuredly, and intelligence.

Soc.

They are intelligent, then, as it seems.

Hipp.

Yes, by Zeus, too much so.

Soc.

And being intelligent, do they know what they are doing, or do they not know?

Hipp.

Yes, they know very well; that is why they do harm.

Soc.

And knowing these things which they know, are they ignorant, or wise?

Hipp.

Wise, surely, in just this, deception.

Soc.

Stop. Let us recall what you say. You say that the false are powerful and intelligent, and knowing and wise in those things in which they are false?

Hipp.

Yes, I do.

Soc.

And that the true and the false are different and complete opposites of one another?

Hipp.

I do.

Soc.

Well, then, the false are among the powerful and the wise, according to your statement.

Hipp.

Certainly.

Soc.

And when you say that the false are powerful and wise for falsehood, do you mean that they have power to utter falsehoods if they like, or that they are powerless in respect to the falsehoods which they utter?

Hipp.

That they have power.

Soc.

In short, then, the false are those who are wise and powerful in uttering falsehoods.

Hipp.

Yes.

Soc.

A man, then, who has not the power to utter falsehoods and is ignorant would not be false.

Hipp.

That is true.

Soc.

Well, but every man has power who does what he wishes at the time when he wishes;

I am not speaking of one who is prevented by disease or that sort of thing, but as I might say of you that you have power to write my name when you wish or do you not say that a man has power who is in such a condition?

Hipp.

Yes, I do.

Soc.

Tell me, then, Hippias, are you not skillful in arithmetical calculations?

Hipp.

Most assuredly, Socrates.

Soc.

Then if some one were to ask you what the product of three times seven hundred is, you could, if you wished,

tell him the truth about that more quickly and better than anyone else?

Hipp.

Certainly.

Soc.

Because you are the most powerful and wisest of men in these matters?

Hipp.

Yes.

Soc.

Are you, then, merely wisest and most powerful, or are you also best in those matters in which you are most powerful and wisest, namely calculations?

Hipp.

Best also, to be sure, Socrates.

Soc.

Then you would have the greatest power to tell the truth about these things, would you not?

Hipp.

I think so.

Soc.

But what of falsehoods about these same things? And please answer this with the same splendid frankness as my previous questions, Hippias. If some one were to ask you how much three times seven hundred is, would you have the most power to tell falsehoods and always uniformly to say false things about these matters, if you wished to tell falsehoods and never to reply truly;

or would he who is ignorant of calculations have more power to tell falsehoods than you, if you wished to do so? Or would the ignorant man often, when he wished to tell falsehoods, involuntarily tell the truth, if it so happened, because he did not know, whereas you, the wise man, if you wished to tell falsehoods, would tell them always and uniformly?

Hipp.

Yes, it is as you say.

Soc.

Is the false man, then, false about other things, but not about number, and would he not tell falsehoods when dealing with number?

Hipp.

He is false about number also, by Zeus.

Soc.

Shall we, then, assume this also,

that there is such a person as a man who is false about calculation and number?

Hipp.

Yes.

Soc.

Now who would that man be? Must he not, as you just now agreed, have power to tell falsehoods, if he is to be false? For it was said by you, if you recollect, that he who has not the power to tell falsehoods would never be false.

Hipp.

Yes, I recollect, that was said.

Soc.

And just now you were found to have most power to tell falsehoods about calculations, were you not?

Hipp.

Yes, that also was said.

Soc.

Have you, then, also most power to tell the truth about calculations?

Hipp.

Certainly.

Soc.

Then the same man has most power to speak both falsehood and truth about calculations; and this man is the one who is good in respect to them, namely the calculator.

Hipp.

Yes.

Soc.

Who, then, becomes false in respect to calculation, Hippias, other than the good man? For the same man is also powerful and he is also true.

Hipp.

So it appears.

Soc.

You see, then, that the same man is both false and true in respect to these matters, and the true is in no wise better than the false? For he is indeed the same man, and the two are not utter opposites,

as you thought just now.

Hipp.

Apparently not, at least in this field.

Soc.

Shall we, then, investigate elsewhere?

Hipp.

If you like.

Soc.

Well, then, are you expert in geometry also?

Hipp.

I am.

Soc.

Well, has not the same man most power to speak falsehood and truth about geometry, namely the geometrician?

Hipp.

Yes.

Soc.

In respect to that, then, is any other good than he?

Hipp.

No, no other.

Soc.

The good and wise geometrician, then, has the most power in both respects, has he not? And if anyone is false in respect to diagrams, it would be this man, the good geometrician? For he has the power, and the bad one was powerless, to speak falsehood; so that he who has no power to speak falsehood would not become false, as has been agreed.

Hipp.

That is true.