Scaife ATLAS

Euthydemus (284-285)

urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0059.tlg021.perseus-eng2:284-285

Refs	`{'start': {'reference': '284', 'human_reference': 'Section 284'}, 'end': {'reference': '285', 'human_reference': 'Section 285'}}`
Ancestors	`[]`
Children	`[]`

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Soc.

Why, Ctesippus,

said Euthydemus,

do you think it possible to lie?

To be sure, I do,

he replied:

I should be mad otherwise.

Do you mean, when one tells the thing about which

284

284a

one is telling, or when one does not?

When one tells it,

he said.

Then if you tell it, you tell just that thing which you tell, of all that are, and nothing else whatever?

Of course,

said Ctesippus.

Now the thing that you tell is a single one, distinct from all the others there are.

Certainly.

Then the person who tells that thing tells that which is?

Yes.

But yet, surely he who tells what is, and things that are, tells the truth: so that Dionysodorus, if he tells things that are, tells the truth and speaks no lie about you.

Yes,

said Ctesippus;

284b

but he who speaks as he did, Euthydemus, does not say things that are.

Then Euthydemus asked him:

And the things which are not, surely are not?

They are not.

Then nowhere can the things that are not be?

Nowhere.

Then is it possible for anyone whatever so to deal with these things that are not as to make them be when they are nowhere?

I think not,

said Ctesippus.

Well now, when orators speak before the people, do they do nothing?

No, they do something,

he replied.

Then if they do,

284c

they also make?

Yes.

Now, is speaking doing and making?

He agreed that it is.

No one, I suppose, speaks what is not—for thereby he would be making something; and you have agreed that one cannot so much as make what is not—so that, by your account, no one speaks what is false, while if Dionysodorus speaks, he speaks what is true and is.

Yes, in faith, Euthydemus,

said Ctesippus;

but somehow or other he speaks what is, only not as it is.

[*]

How do you mean, Ctesippus?

said Dionysodorus.

284d

Are there persons who tell things as they are?

Why surely,

he replied,

there are gentlemen—people who speak the truth?

Well,

he went on, good things are in good case, bad in bad, are they not?

He assented.

And you admit that gentlemen tell things as they are.

I do.

Then, Ctesippus, good people speak evil of evil things, if they speak of them as they are.

Yes, I can tell you, very much so, when for instance they speak of evil men; among whom, if you take my advice,

284e

you will beware of being included, that the good may not speak ill of you. For, I assure you, the good speak ill[*] of the evil.

And they speak greatly of the great,

asked Euthydemus,

and hotly of the hot?

Certainly, I presume,

said Ctesippus:

I know they speak frigidly of the frigid, and call their way of arguing frigid.

You are turning abusive, Ctesippus,

said Dionysodorus,

quite abusive!

Soc.

Not I, on my soul, Dionysodorus, for I like you: I am only giving you a friendly hint, and endeavoring to persuade you never to say anything so tactless in my presence as

285

285a

that I wish these my most highly valued friends to be dead and gone.

So then I, observing that they were getting rather savage with each other, began to poke fun. at Ctesippus, saying: Ctesippus, my feeling is that we ought to accept from our visitors what they tell us, if they are so good as to give it, and should not quarrel over a word. For if they understand how to do away with people in such sort as to change them from wicked and witless to honest and intelligent, and that too whether they have discovered for themselves

285b

or learnt from somebody else this peculiar kind of destruction or undoing, which enables them to destroy a man in his wickedness and set him up again in honesty; if they understand this—and obviously they do; you know they said that their newly discovered art was to turn wicked men into good—let us then accord them this power; let them destroy the lad for us, and make him sensible, and all the rest of us likewise. If you young fellows are afraid, let the experiment be made on me

285c

as a corpus vile[*]; for I, being an elderly person, am ready to take the risk and put myself in the hands of Dionysodorus here, as if he were the famous Medea of Colchis. Let him destroy me, and if he likes let him boil me down, or do to me whatever he pleases: only he must make me good.

Then Ctesippus said:

I too, Socrates, am ready to offer myself to be skinned by the strangers even more, if they choose, than they are doing now, if my hide

285d

is not to end by being made into a wine-skin, like that of Marsyas,[*] but into the shape of virtue. And yet Dionysodorus here believes I am vexed with him. I am not vexed at all; I only contradict the remarks which I think he has improperly aimed at me. Come now, my generous Dionysodorus, do not call contradiction abuse: abuse is quite another thing.

On this Dionysodorus said:

As though there were such a thing as contradiction! Is that the way you argue, Ctesippus?

Yes, to be sure,

he replied,

indeed I do; and do you, Dionysodorus,

285e

hold that there is not?

Well, you at any rate,

he said,

could not prove that you had ever heard a single person contradicting another.

Is that so?

he replied:

well, let us hear now whether I can prove a case of it—Ctesippus contradicting Dionysodorus.

Now, will you make that good?

Certainly,

he said.

Tokens

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Why	1	w	7
Ctesippus	1	w	17
said	1	w	22
Euthydemus	1	w	32
do	1	w	35
you	1	w	38
think	1	w	43
it	1	w	45
possible	1	w	53
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To	1	w	61
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sure	1	w	67
I	1	w	69
do	2	w	71
he	1	w	74
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Do	1	w	106
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one	3	w	166
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not	1	w	173
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the	7	w	389
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is	5	w	428
Yes	1	w	432
But	1	w	436
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Dionysodorus	1	w	512
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the	9	w	544
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and	3	w	552
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lie	3	w	563
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Ctesippus	3	w	589
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he	19	w	595
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Euthydemus	2	w	622
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Euthydemus	3	w	661
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him	1	w	669
And	1	w	673
the	10	w	676
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that	11	w	822
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not	8	w	828
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to	3	w	832
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them	1	w	840
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when	3	w	846
they	1	w	850
are	11	w	853
nowhere	2	w	860
I	3	w	862
think	2	w	867
not	9	w	870
said	5	w	875
Ctesippus	4	w	884
Well	1	w	889
now	3	w	892
when	4	w	897
orators	1	w	904
speak	3	w	909
before	1	w	915
the	15	w	918
people	1	w	924
do	6	w	927
they	2	w	931
do	7	w	933
nothing	2	w	940
No	3	w	943
they	3	w	948
do	8	w	950
something	1	w	959
he	38	w	962
replied	2	w	969
Then	6	w	974
if	3	w	976
they	4	w	980
do	9	w	982
they	5	w	987
also	1	w	991
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Yes	3	w	999
Now	3	w	1003
is	8	w	1006
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doing	1	w	1019
and	4	w	1022
making	1	w	1028
He	1	w	1031
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that	12	w	1041
it	6	w	1043
is	9	w	1045
No	5	w	1048
one	7	w	1051
I	4	w	1053
suppose	1	w	1060
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what	4	w	1071
is	10	w	1073
not	11	w	1076
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that	13	w	1132
one	8	w	1135
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so	8	w	1143
much	1	w	1147
as	4	w	1149
make	3	w	1153
what	5	w	1157
is	11	w	1159
not	13	w	1162
so	9	w	1165
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no	18	w	1186
one	9	w	1189
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what	6	w	1199
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false	1	w	1206
while	1	w	1212
if	4	w	1214
Dionysodorus	2	w	1226
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he	44	w	1235
speaks	6	w	1241
what	7	w	1245
is	13	w	1247
true	1	w	1251
and	6	w	1254
is	14	w	1256
Yes	4	w	1260
in	25	w	1263
faith	1	w	1268
Euthydemus	4	w	1279
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Ctesippus	5	w	1293
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speaks	7	w	1319
what	8	w	1323
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only	1	w	1330
not	14	w	1333
as	5	w	1335
it	8	w	1337
is	16	w	1339
The	8	w	1343
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a	88	w	1376
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How	1	w	1527
do	13	w	1529
you	10	w	1532
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Ctesippus	6	w	1546
said	7	w	1551
Dionysodorus	3	w	1563
Are	1	w	1567
there	3	w	1572
persons	1	w	1579
who	4	w	1582
tell	14	w	1586
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as	9	w	1594
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surely	3	w	1611
he	53	w	1614
replied	3	w	1621
there	4	w	1627
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gentlemen	1	w	1639
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the	27	w	1657
truth	3	w	1662
Well	2	w	1667
he	56	w	1670
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good	1	w	1681
things	8	w	1687
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in	32	w	1692
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case	1	w	1700
bad	1	w	1704
in	33	w	1706
bad	2	w	1709
are	15	w	1713
they	7	w	1717
not	16	w	1720
He	2	w	1723
assented	1	w	1731
And	2	w	1735
you	11	w	1738
admit	1	w	1743
that	15	w	1747
gentlemen	2	w	1756
tell	15	w	1760
things	9	w	1766
as	12	w	1768
they	8	w	1772
are	16	w	1775
I	5	w	1777
do	15	w	1779
Then	7	w	1784
Ctesippus	7	w	1794
good	3	w	1799
people	3	w	1805
speak	11	w	1810
evil	1	w	1814
of	4	w	1816
evil	2	w	1820
things	10	w	1826
if	6	w	1829
they	9	w	1833
speak	12	w	1838
of	5	w	1840
them	2	w	1844
as	13	w	1846
they	10	w	1850
are	17	w	1853
Yes	5	w	1857
I	6	w	1859
can	3	w	1862
tell	16	w	1866
you	12	w	1869
very	2	w	1874
much	2	w	1878
so	14	w	1880
when	5	w	1885
for	4	w	1888
instance	1	w	1896
they	11	w	1900
speak	13	w	1905
of	6	w	1907
evil	3	w	1911
men	3	w	1914
among	1	w	1920
whom	1	w	1924
if	7	w	1927
you	13	w	1930
take	1	w	1934
my	1	w	1936
advice	1	w	1942
you	14	w	1946
will	2	w	1950
beware	1	w	1956
of	7	w	1958
being	1	w	1963
included	1	w	1971
that	16	w	1976
the	34	w	1979
good	4	w	1983
may	1	w	1986
not	17	w	1989
speak	14	w	1994
ill	3	w	1997
of	8	w	1999
you	15	w	2002
For	1	w	2006
I	7	w	2008
assure	1	w	2014
you	16	w	2017
the	35	w	2021
good	5	w	2025
speak	15	w	2030
ill	4	w	2033
Euthydemus	5	w	2043
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on	21	w	2051
the	36	w	2054
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of	9	w	2068
κακῶς	1	w	2073
which	5	w	2078
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or	13	w	2098
injuriously	1	w	2109
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the	38	w	2115
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And	3	w	2123
they	12	w	2127
speak	16	w	2132
greatly	1	w	2139
of	11	w	2141
the	40	w	2144
great	2	w	2149
asked	2	w	2155
Euthydemus	6	w	2165
and	8	w	2169
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of	12	w	2176
the	41	w	2179
hot	2	w	2182
Certainly	2	w	2192
I	8	w	2194
presume	1	w	2201
said	8	w	2206
Ctesippus	8	w	2215
I	9	w	2217
know	1	w	2221
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speak	17	w	2230
frigidly	1	w	2238
of	13	w	2240
the	43	w	2243
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and	9	w	2253
call	1	w	2257
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way	1	w	2265
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turning	1	w	2294
abusive	1	w	2301
Ctesippus	9	w	2311
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Dionysodorus	4	w	2328
quite	1	w	2334
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Soc	2	w	2345
Not	1	w	2349
I	10	w	2350
on	23	w	2353
my	2	w	2355
soul	1	w	2359
Dionysodorus	5	w	2372
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I	11	w	2377
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I	12	w	2386
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a	148	w	2402
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Ctesippus	10	w	2627
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not	18	w	2743
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and	15	w	2855
intelligent	1	w	2866
and	16	w	2870
that	20	w	2874
too	1	w	2877
whether	1	w	2884
they	18	w	2888
have	2	w	2892
discovered	1	w	2902
for	6	w	2905
themselves	1	w	2915
or	23	w	2917
learnt	1	w	2923
from	4	w	2927
somebody	1	w	2935
else	2	w	2939
this	2	w	2943
peculiar	1	w	2951
kind	1	w	2955
of	15	w	2957
destruction	1	w	2968
or	24	w	2970
undoing	1	w	2977
which	6	w	2983
enables	1	w	2990
them	5	w	2994
to	18	w	2996
destroy	1	w	3003
a	189	w	3004
man	1	w	3007
in	56	w	3009
his	3	w	3012
wickedness	1	w	3022
and	17	w	3025
set	1	w	3028
him	2	w	3031
up	2	w	3033
again	1	w	3038
in	58	w	3040
honesty	1	w	3047
if	10	w	3050
they	19	w	3054
understand	2	w	3064
this	3	w	3068
and	19	w	3072
obviously	1	w	3081
they	20	w	3085
do	20	w	3087
you	20	w	3091
know	2	w	3095
they	21	w	3099
said	10	w	3103
that	21	w	3107
their	2	w	3112
newly	1	w	3117
discovered	2	w	3127
art	1	w	3130
was	1	w	3133
to	19	w	3135
turn	2	w	3139
wicked	3	w	3145
men	4	w	3148
into	1	w	3152
good	7	w	3156
let	1	w	3160
us	33	w	3162
then	2	w	3166
accord	1	w	3172
them	6	w	3176
this	4	w	3180
power	1	w	3185
let	2	w	3189
them	7	w	3193
destroy	2	w	3200
the	65	w	3203
lad	1	w	3206
for	7	w	3209
us	34	w	3211
and	20	w	3215
make	4	w	3219
him	3	w	3222
sensible	1	w	3230
and	21	w	3234
all	4	w	3237
the	66	w	3240
rest	1	w	3244
of	16	w	3246
us	35	w	3248
likewise	1	w	3256
If	1	w	3259
you	21	w	3262
young	1	w	3267
fellows	1	w	3274
are	21	w	3277
afraid	1	w	3283
let	3	w	3287
the	67	w	3290
experiment	1	w	3300
be	12	w	3302
made	1	w	3306
on	30	w	3308
me	14	w	3310
as	20	w	3312
a	211	w	3313
corpus	1	w	3319
vile	1	w	3323
Lit	1	w	3326
a	212	w	3328
Carian	1	w	3334
slave	1	w	3339
for	8	w	3344
I	16	w	3345
being	2	w	3351
an	35	w	3353
elderly	1	w	3360
person	3	w	3366
am	4	w	3369
ready	1	w	3374
to	21	w	3376
take	2	w	3380
the	68	w	3383
risk	1	w	3387
and	22	w	3390
put	1	w	3393
myself	1	w	3399
in	61	w	3401
the	69	w	3404
hands	1	w	3409
of	17	w	3411
Dionysodorus	6	w	3423
here	9	w	3427
as	21	w	3430
if	11	w	3432
he	103	w	3434
were	2	w	3438
the	70	w	3441
famous	1	w	3447
Medea	1	w	3452
of	18	w	3454
Colchis	1	w	3461
Let	1	w	3465
him	4	w	3468
destroy	3	w	3475
me	15	w	3477
and	24	w	3481
if	12	w	3483
he	105	w	3485
likes	1	w	3490
let	4	w	3493
him	5	w	3496
boil	1	w	3500
me	16	w	3502
down	1	w	3506
or	30	w	3509
do	23	w	3511
to	22	w	3513
me	17	w	3515
whatever	3	w	3523
he	106	w	3525
pleases	1	w	3532
only	3	w	3537
he	107	w	3539
must	1	w	3543
make	5	w	3547
me	18	w	3549
good	8	w	3553
Then	8	w	3558
Ctesippus	12	w	3567
said	11	w	3571
I	17	w	3573
too	2	w	3576
Socrates	1	w	3585
am	6	w	3588
ready	2	w	3593
to	24	w	3595
offer	1	w	3600
myself	2	w	3606
to	25	w	3608
be	14	w	3610
skinned	1	w	3617
by	4	w	3619
the	71	w	3622
strangers	1	w	3631
even	1	w	3635
more	1	w	3639
if	13	w	3642
they	22	w	3646
choose	1	w	3652
than	1	w	3657
they	23	w	3661
are	22	w	3664
doing	3	w	3669
now	6	w	3672
if	14	w	3675
my	8	w	3677
hide	1	w	3681
is	33	w	3683
not	19	w	3686
to	26	w	3688
end	4	w	3691
by	5	w	3693
being	3	w	3698
made	2	w	3702
into	2	w	3706
a	237	w	3707
wine-skin	1	w	3716
like	4	w	3721
that	22	w	3725
of	20	w	3727
Marsyas	1	w	3734
This	1	w	3739
satyr	1	w	3744
was	2	w	3747
fabled	1	w	3753
to	28	w	3755
have	3	w	3759
challenged	1	w	3769
Apollo	1	w	3775
to	29	w	3777
a	246	w	3778
musical	1	w	3785
contest	1	w	3792
and	25	w	3796
on	35	w	3798
his	8	w	3801
fluting	1	w	3808
being	4	w	3813
judged	1	w	3819
inferior	1	w	3827
to	30	w	3829
Apollo	2	w	3835
s	276	w	3837
harping	1	w	3844
he	112	w	3846
was	3	w	3849
flayed	1	w	3855
alive	1	w	3860
by	6	w	3862
the	74	w	3865
god	1	w	3868
for	9	w	3871
his	9	w	3874
presumption	1	w	3885
and	26	w	3889
his	10	w	3892
skin	3	w	3896
was	4	w	3899
hung	1	w	3903
up	3	w	3905
like	5	w	3909
a	255	w	3910
bag	1	w	3913
or	34	w	3915
bottle	1	w	3921
in	73	w	3923
a	257	w	3924
cave	1	w	3928
cf	1	w	3931
Herod	1	w	3937
vii	1	w	3941
26	1	w	3944
but	3	w	3948
into	3	w	3952
the	75	w	3955
shape	1	w	3960
of	21	w	3962
virtue	1	w	3968
And	4	w	3972
yet	2	w	3975
Dionysodorus	7	w	3987
here	10	w	3991
believes	1	w	3999
I	18	w	4000
am	7	w	4002
vexed	1	w	4007
with	5	w	4011
him	6	w	4014
I	19	w	4016
am	8	w	4018
not	20	w	4021
vexed	2	w	4026
at	42	w	4028
all	6	w	4031
I	20	w	4033
only	4	w	4037
contradict	1	w	4047
the	76	w	4050
remarks	1	w	4057
which	7	w	4062
I	21	w	4063
think	3	w	4068
he	117	w	4070
has	2	w	4073
improperly	1	w	4083
aimed	1	w	4088
at	43	w	4090
me	20	w	4092
Come	1	w	4097
now	7	w	4100
my	9	w	4103
generous	1	w	4111
Dionysodorus	8	w	4123
do	27	w	4126
not	21	w	4129
call	2	w	4133
contradiction	1	w	4146
abuse	1	w	4151
abuse	2	w	4157
is	38	w	4159
quite	2	w	4164
another	1	w	4171
thing	21	w	4176
On	1	w	4179
this	5	w	4183
Dionysodorus	9	w	4195
said	12	w	4199
As	1	w	4202
though	1	w	4208
there	5	w	4213
were	3	w	4217
such	2	w	4221
a	275	w	4222
thing	22	w	4227
as	28	w	4229
contradiction	2	w	4242
Is	1	w	4245
that	23	w	4249
the	79	w	4252
way	3	w	4255
you	23	w	4258
argue	1	w	4263
Ctesippus	13	w	4273
Yes	6	w	4277
to	32	w	4280
be	18	w	4282
sure	6	w	4286
he	121	w	4289
replied	4	w	4296
indeed	1	w	4303
I	23	w	4304
do	29	w	4306
and	27	w	4310
do	30	w	4312
you	24	w	4315
Dionysodorus	10	w	4328
hold	1	w	4333
that	24	w	4337
there	6	w	4342
is	40	w	4344
not	23	w	4347
Well	3	w	4352
you	25	w	4356
at	46	w	4358
any	3	w	4361
rate	2	w	4365
he	123	w	4368
said	13	w	4372
could	1	w	4378
not	24	w	4381
prove	1	w	4386
that	25	w	4390
you	26	w	4393
had	1	w	4396
ever	5	w	4400
heard	1	w	4405
a	290	w	4406
single	2	w	4412
person	4	w	4418
contradicting	1	w	4431
another	2	w	4438
Is	2	w	4441
that	26	w	4445
so	29	w	4447
he	126	w	4450
replied	5	w	4457
well	1	w	4462
let	5	w	4466
us	50	w	4468
hear	2	w	4472
now	8	w	4475
whether	2	w	4482
I	25	w	4483
can	4	w	4486
prove	2	w	4491
a	296	w	4492
case	2	w	4496
of	22	w	4498
it	23	w	4500
Ctesippus	14	w	4510
contradicting	2	w	4523
Dionysodorus	11	w	4535
Now	4	w	4539
will	3	w	4544
you	27	w	4547
make	6	w	4551
that	27	w	4555
good	9	w	4559
Certainly	3	w	4569
he	130	w	4572
said	14	w	4576