Lysis (213-217)

Then the loved object is a friend to the lover, it would seem, Menexenus, alike whether it loves or hates: for instance, new-born children,

who have either not begun to love, or already hate, if punished by their mother or their father, are yet at that very moment, and in spite of their hate, especially and pre-eminently friends to their parents. he said, Then this argument shows that it is not the lover who is a friend, but the loved. And it is the hated who is an enemy, not the hater. Then people must often be loved by their enemies, and hated by their friends, and be friends to their enemies and enemies to their friends, if the loved object is a friend rather than the loving agent. And yet it is a gross absurdity, my dear friend—I should say rather, an impossibility—that one should be an enemy to one’s friend and a friend to one’s enemy. he said. Then if that is impossible, it is the loving that must be a friend of the loved. And so the hating, on the other hand, will be an enemy of the hated. Hence in the end we shall find ourselves compelled to agree to the same statement as we made before, that frequently a man is a friend of one who is no friend, and frequently even of an enemy, when he loves one who loves not, or even hates; while frequently a man may be an enemy of one who is no enemy or even a friend, when he hates one who hates not, or even loves. [*] he said. What then are we to make of it, I asked, if neither the loving are to be friends, nor the loved, nor both the loving and loved together? [*] For apart from these, are there any others left for us to cite as becoming friends to one another? he said, Can it be, Menexenus, I asked, that all through there has been something wrong with our inquiry? said Lysis, and blushed as soon as he said it; for it struck me that the words escaped him unintentionally, through his closely applying his mind to our talk—as he had noticeably done all the time he was listening. So then, as I wanted to give Menexenus a rest, and was delighted with the other’s taste for philosophy, I took occasion to shift the discussion over to Lysis, and said: Lysis, I think your remark is true, that if we were inquiring correctly we could never have gone so sadly astray.

Well, let us follow our present line no further, since our inquiry looks to me a rather hard sort of path: I think we had best make for the point where we turned off,

and be guided by the poets; for they are our fathers, as it were, and conductors in wisdom. They, of course, express themselves in no mean sort on the subject of friends, where they happen to be found; even saying that God himself makes them friends by drawing them to each other. The way they put it, I believe, is something like this:

Yea, ever like and like together God doth draw,

Hom. Od. 17.218 and so brings them acquainted; or have you not come across these verses? he replied. And you have also come across those writings of eminent sages, which tell us this very thing—that like must needs be always friend to like? I refer, of course, to those who debate or write about nature and the universe. [*] he said. Well now, I went on, are they right in what they say? he replied. Perhaps in one half of it, I said; perhaps in even the whole; only we do not comprehend it. We suppose that the nearer a wicked man approaches to a wicked man, and the more he consorts with him, the more hateful he becomes; for he injures him, and we consider it impossible that injurer and injured should be friends. Is it not so? he answered. On this showing, therefore, half of the saying cannot be true, if the wicked are like one another. What I believe they mean is that the good are like one another, and are friends, while the bad—as is also said of them—are never like even their own selves, being so ill-balanced and unsteady; and when a thing is unlike itself and variable it can hardly become like or friend to anything else. You must surely agree to that? he said. Hence I conclude there is a hidden meaning, dear friend, intended by those who say that like is friend to like, namely that the good alone is friend to the good alone, while the bad never enters into true friendship with either good or bad. Do you agree? He nodded assent. So now we can tell what friends are; since our argument discloses that they are any persons who may be good. said he. And I also, said I; and yet there is a point in it that makes me uneasy: so come, in Heaven’s name, let us make out what it is that I suspect. Is like friend to like in so far as he is like, and is such an one useful to his fellow? Let me put it another way: when anything whatever is like anything else, what benefit can it offer, or what harm can it do, to its like, which it could not offer or do to itself?

Or what could be done to it that could not be done to it by itself?

How can such things be cherished by each other, when they can bring no mutual succor? Is it at all possible? And how can that be a friend, which is not cherished? But, granting that like is not friend to like, the good may still be friend to the good in so far as he is good, not as he is like? But again, will not the good, in so far as he is good, be in that measure sufficient for himself? And the sufficient has no need of anything, by virtue of his sufficiency. [*] And if a man has no need of anything he will not cherish anything. And that which does not cherish will not love. And one who loves not is no friend. So how can we say that the good will be friends to the good at all, when neither in absence do they long for one another—for they are sufficient for themselves even when apart—nor in presence have they need of one another? How can it be contrived that such persons shall value each other highly? he said. And if they do not set a high value on each other, they cannot be friends. Now observe, Lysis, how we are missing the track. Can it be, indeed, that we are deceived in the whole matter? he asked. Once on a time I heard somebody say, and I have just recollected it, that like was most hostile to like, and so were good men to good men; and what is more, he put forward Hesiod as witness, by quoting his words—

See potter wroth with potter, bard with bard,

Beggar with beggar,

Hes. WD 25and in all other cases it was the same, he said; likest things must needs be filled with envy, contention, and hatred against each other, but the unlikest things with friendship: since the poor man must needs be friendly to the rich, and the weak to the strong, for the sake of assistance, and also the sick man to the doctor; and every ignorant person had to cherish the well-informed, and love him. And then the speaker pursued his theme to this further and more imposing point—that like could not in the slightest degree be friendly to like, but was in just the opposite case: for it was between things most opposed that friendship was chiefly to be found, since everything desired its opposite, not its like. Thus dry desired wet, cold hot, bitter sweet, sharp blunt, empty fullness, full emptiness, and likewise the rest on the same principle:

for the opposite was food for its opposite, as the like

could have no enjoyment of its like. And I must say, my good friend, his argument seemed a smart one, for he expressed it well. But you, I asked—how does it strike you? said Menexenus, Then are we to say that the opposite is most friendly to its opposite? Well, I exclaimed, is it not monstrous, Menexenus? Why, at once these all-accomplished logic-choppers will delightedly pounce on us and ask whether hatred is not the most opposite thing to friendship. And what answer shall we give them? Shall we not be forced to admit that what they say is true? So then, they will demand, is a hating thing friend to the friendly thing, or the friendly to the hating? he replied. But is the just a friend to the unjust, or the temperate to the profligate, or the good to the bad? But yet, I urged, if one thing is friend to another on this principle of opposition, these things too must needs be friends. So neither is like friend to like, nor opposite friend to opposite. But there is still this point to consider; for perhaps we are yet more mistaken, and the friendly has really nothing to do with all this: it may rather be something neither good nor bad that will prove after all to be what we call friend of the good. he asked. For the life of me, I said, I cannot tell: the fact is, I am quite dizzy myself with the puzzle of our argument, and am inclined to agree with the ancient proverb that the beautiful is friendly. [*] It certainly resembles something soft and smooth and sleek; that is why, I daresay, it so easily slides and dives right into us, by virtue of those qualities. For I declare that the good is beautiful: do you not agree? Then I will be a diviner for once, and state that what is neither good nor bad is friendly to what is beautiful and good; and what it is that prompts me to this divination, you must now hear. My view is that there are three separate kinds, as it were—the good, the bad, and what is neither good nor bad; and what is yours? he replied. And that neither is the good friendly to the good, nor the bad to the bad, nor the good to the bad; so much our previous argument already forbids. One view then remains: if anything is friendly to anything, that which is neither good nor bad is friendly to either the good or what is of the same quality as itself. For I presume nothing could be found friendly to the bad. Nor, however, can like be friendly to like: this we stated just now, did we not? So what is neither good nor bad can have no friendship with the same sort of thing as itself.

Then only what is neither good nor bad proves to be friendly to the good,

and to that only. Then can we rely further on this present statement, my boys, I said, as a sure guide? For instance, we have only to consider a body in health to see that it has no need of doctoring or assistance: it is well enough as it is, and so no one in health is friend to a doctor, on account of his health. You agree? But the sick man is, I imagine, on account of his disease. Now disease is a bad thing, and medicine is beneficial and good. And a body, of course, taken as body, is neither good nor bad. But a body is compelled by disease to welcome and love medicine. Thus what is neither bad nor good becomes a friend of the good because of the presence of evil. But clearly this must be before it is itself made evil by the evil which it has; for surely, when once it has been made evil, it can no longer have any desire or love for the good; since we agreed it was impossible for bad to be a friend of good. Now observe what I say. Some things are of the same sort as those that are present with them, and some are not. For example, if you chose to dye something a certain color, the substance of the dye is present, I presume, with the thing dyed. Then is the thing dyed of the same sort, in point of color, as the substance that is added? he said. Well, try it this way, I went on: suppose some one tinged your golden locks with white lead, would they then be or appear to be white? he replied. And, in fact, whiteness would be present with them? But all the same they would not be any the more white as yet; for though whiteness be present, they are not at all white, any more than they are at all black. But when, my dear boy, old age has cast that same color upon them, they have then come to be of the same sort as that which is present—white through presence of white. So this is the question I have been trying to put to you—whether a thing that has something present with it is to be held of the same sort as that present thing or only when that thing is present in a particular way, but otherwise not? he said. So that what is neither bad nor good is sometimes, when bad is present, not bad as yet, and such cases have been known to occur. When therefore it is not bad as yet, though bad is present, this presence makes it desire good; but the presence which makes it bad deprives it equally of its desire and its love for the good.