Or even if they do look at them in that way, are you still going to deny that they will change their opinion and answer differently? Or do you think that anyone is ungentle to the gentle or grudging to the ungrudging if he himself is ungrudging A recurrence to etymological meaning. Cf. ἄθυμον 411 B, Laws 888 A, εὐψυχίας Laws 791 C, Thompson on Meno 78 E, Aristot. Topics 112 a 32-38, Eurip. Heracleidae 730 ἀσθαλῶς , Shakes. Rich. III. v. v. 37 reduce these bloody days again. and mild? I will anticipate you and reply that I think that only in some few and not in the mass of mankind is so ungentle or harsh a temper to be found. And I, you may be assured, he said, concur. And do you not also concur For a similar teasing or playful repetition of a word cf. 517 C, 394 B, 449 C, 470 B-C. in this very point that the blame for this harsh attitude of the many towards philosophy falls on that riotous crew who have burst in For the figure of the κῶμος or revel rout cf. Theaet. 184A, Aesch. Ag. 1189, Eurip. Ion 1197, and, with a variation of the image, Virgil, Aen. i. 148. where they do not belong, wrangling with one another, Cf. Adam ad loc. and Wilamowitz, Platon, ii. 121. filled with spite Isoc. Antid. 260 seems to take this term to himself; Cf. Panath. 249, Peace 65, Lysias xxiv. 24 πολυπράγμων εἰμὶ καὶ θρασὺς καὶ φιλαπεχθήμων Demosth, xxiv, 6. and always talking about persons, i.e. gossip. cf. Aristot. Eth. Nic. 1125 a 5 οὐδ’ ἀνθρωπολόγος , Epictetus iii. 16. 4. Cf. also Phileb. 59 b, Theaet. 173 D, 174 C. a thing least befitting philosophy? Least of all, indeed, he said. 
 For surely, Adeimantus, the man whose mind is truly fixed on eternal realities Cf. on 486 A, also Phileb. 58 D, 59 A, Tim. 90 D, and perhaps Tim. 47 A and Phaedo 79. This passage is often supposed to refer to the ideas, and ἐκεῖ in 500 D shows that Plato is in fact there thinking of them, though in Rep. 529 A-B ff. he protests against this identification. And strictly speaking κατὰ ταὐτὰ ἀεὶ ἔχοντα in C would on Platonic principles be true only of the ideas. Nevertheless poets and imitators have rightly felt that the dominating thought of the passage is the effect on the philosopher’s mind of the contemplation of the heavens. This confusion or assimilation is, of course, still more natural to Aristotle, who thought the stars unchanging. Cf. Met. 1063 a 16 ταὐτὰ δ’ αἰεὶ καὶ μεταβολῆς οὐδεμιᾶς κοινωνοῦντα . Cf. also Sophocles, Ajax 669 ff., and Shorey in Sneath, Evolution of Ethics, pp. 261-263, Dio Chrys. xl. (Teubner ii. p. 199), Boethius, Cons. iii. 8 respicite caeli spatium . . . et aliquando desinite vilia mirari. has no leisure to turn his eyes downward upon the petty affairs of men, and so engaging in strife with them to be filled with envy and hate, but he fixes his gaze upon the things of the eternal and unchanging order, and seeing that they neither wrong nor are wronged by one another, but all abide in harmony as reason bids, he will endeavor to imitate them and, as far as may be, to fashion himself in their likeness and assimilate ἀφομοιοῦσθαι suggests the ὁμοίωσις θέῳ Theaet. 176 B. Cf. What Plato Said, p. 578. himself to them. Or do you think it possible not to imitate the things to which anyone attaches himself with admiration? Impossible, he said. Then the lover of wisdom associating with the divine order will himself become orderly and divine in the measure permitted to man. Cf. on 493 D, and for the idea 383 C. But calumny Cf. Hamlet III. i. 141 thou shalt not escape calumny, Bacchylides 12 (13). 202-203 βροτῶν δὲ μῶμος πάντεσσι μέν ἐστιν ἐπ’ ἔγοις . is plentiful everywhere. Yes, truly. If, then, I said, some compulsion The philosopher unwillingly holds office. Cf. on 345 E. is laid upon him to practise stamping on the plastic matter of human nature in public and private the patterns that he visions there, ἐκεῖ is frequently used in Plato of the world of ideas. Cf. Phaedrus 250 A. Phaedo 109 E. and not merely to mould For the word πλάττειν used of the lawgiver cf. 377 C, Laws 671 C, 712 B, 746 A, 800 B, Rep. 374 A, 377 c, 420 c, 466 A, 588 C, etc. For the idea that the ruler shapes the state according to the pattern Cf. 540 A-B. Plato applies the language of the theory of ideas to the social tissue here exactly as he applies it to the making of a tool in the Cratylus 389 C. In both cases there is a workman, the ideal pattern and the material in which it is more or less perfectly embodied. Such passages are the source of Aristotle’s doctrine f matter and form. Cf. Met. 1044 a 25 De part. an. 630 b 25-27, 640 b 24 f., 642 a 10 ff., De an. 403 b 3, Seller, Aristot. (Eng.) i. p. 356. Cf. also Gorg. 503 D-E, Polit. 306 C, 309 D and Unity of Plato’s Thought, pp. 31-32. Cf. Alcinous, Εἰσαγωγή ii. (Teubner vi. p. 153) ἃ κατὰ τὸν θεωρητικὸν βίον ὁρᾶται, μελετῆσαι εἰς ἀνθρώπων ἤθη . and fashion himself, do you think he will prove a poor craftsman Cf. Aristot. Pol. 1329 a 21 ἀρετῆς δημιουργόν . Cf. also 1275 b 29 with Newman, Introd. Aristot. Pol. p. 229. Cf. 395 C δημιουργοὺς ἐλευθερίας , Theages 125 A δημιουργὸν . . . τῆς σοφίας . of sobriety and justice and all forms of ordinary civic virtue Cf. Laws 968 A πρὸς ταῖς δημοσίαις ἀρεταῖς , Phaedo 82 A and ibid , Vol. I. on 430 C. Brochard, La Morale de Platon, L’Année Philosophique, xvi. ( 1905 ) p. 12 La justice est appelée une vertu populaire. This is a little misleading, if he means that justice itself is une vertu populaire. ? By no means, he said. But if the multitude become aware that what we are saying of the philosopher is true, will they still be harsh with philosophers, and will they distrust our statement that no city could ever be blessed unless its lineaments were traced For διαγράψειαν cf. 387 B and Laws 778 A. See also Stallbaum ad loc. by artists who used the heavenly model? They will not be harsh, 
 he said, if they perceive that. But tell me, what is the manner of that sketch you have in mind? They will take the city and the characters of men, as they might a tablet, and first wipe it clean— Cf. Vol. I. on 426 B. This is one of the passages that may be used or misused to class Plato with the radicaIs. Cf. Laws 736 A-B, Polit. 293 D, Euthyphro 2 D-3 A. H. W. Schneider, The Puritan Mind, p. 36, says, Plato claimed that before his Republic could be established the adult population must be killed off. Cf. however Vol. I. Introd. p. xxxix, What Plato Said, p. 83, and infra, p. 76, note a on 502 B. no easy task. But at any rate you know that this would be their first point of difference from ordinary reformers, that they would refuse to take in hand either individual or state or to legislate before they either received a clean slate or themselves made it clean. And they would be right, he said. And thereafter, do you not think that they would sketch the figure of the constitution? Surely. And then, I take it, in the course of the work they would glance The theory of ideas frequently employs this image of the artist looking off to his model and back again to his work. Cf. on 484 C, and What Plato Said, p. 458, Unity of Plato’s Thought, p. 37. frequently in either direction, at justice, beauty, sobriety and the like as they are in the nature of things, i.e. the idea of justice. For φύσις and the theory of ideas Cf. 597 C, Phaedo 103 b, Parmen. 132 D, Cratyl. 389 C-D, 390 E. and alternately at that which they were trying to reproduce in mankind, mingling and blending from various pursuits that hue of the flesh, so to speak, deriving their judgement from that likeness of humanity For ἀνδρείκελον Cf. Cratyl. 424 E. which Homer too called when it appeared in men the image and likeness of God. Il. i. 131, Od. iii. 416. Cf. 589 D, 500 C-D, Laws 818 B-C, and What Plato Said, p. 578 on Theaet. 176 B, Cic. Tusc. i. 26. 65 divina mallem ad not. Cf. also Tim. 90 A, Phaedr. 249 C. The modern reader may think of Tennyson, In Mem. cviii. What find I in place But mine own phantom chanting hymns? Cf. also Adam ad loc. Right, he said. And they would erase one touch or stroke and paint in another until in the measure of the possible Cf. 500 D and on 493 D. they had made the characters of men pleasing and dear to God as may be. That at any rate For γοῦν cf. ibid , vol. I. on 334 A. would be the fairest painting. Are we then making any impression on those who you said Cf. 474 A. were advancing to attack us with might and main? Can we convince them that such a political artist of character and such a painter exists as the one we then were praising when our proposal to entrust the state to him angered them, and are they now in a gentler mood when they hear what we are now saying? Much gentler, he said, if they are reasonable. How can they controvert it Cf. 591 A. This affirmation of the impossibility of denial or controversy is a motif frequent in the attic orators. Cf. Lysias xxx. 26, xxxi. 24, xiii. 49, vi. 46, etc. ? Will they deny that the lovers of wisdom are lovers of reality and truth? That would be monstrous, he said. Or that their nature as we have portrayed it is akin to the highest and best? Not that either. Well, then, can they deny that such a nature bred in the pursuits that befit it will be perfectly good and philosophic so far as that can be said of anyone? Or will they rather say it of those whom we have excluded? Surely not. Will they, then, any longer be fierce with us when we declare that, until the philosophic class wins control, there will be no surcease of trouble for city or citizens nor will the polity which we fable Cf. 376 D, Laws 632 E, 841 C, Phaedr. 276 E. Frutiger, Les Mythes de Platon, p. 13, says Plato uses the word μῦθος only once of his own myths, Polit. 268 E. in words be brought to pass in deed? They will perhaps be less so, he said. Instead of less so, may we not say that they have been altogether tamed and convinced, so that 
 for very shame, if for no other reason, they may assent? Certainly, said he. 
 Let us assume, then, said I, that they are won over to this view. Will anyone contend that there is no chance that the offspring of kings and rulers should be born with the philosophic nature? Not one, he said. And can anyone prove that if so born they must necessarily be corrupted? The difficulty Cf. Laws 711 D τὸ χαλεπόν , and 495 A-B. of their salvation we too concede; but that in all the course of time not one of all could be saved, Cf. 494 A. will anyone maintain that? How could he? But surely, said I, the occurrence of one such is enough, Cf. Epist. vii. 328 C and Novotny, Plato’s Epistles, p. 170 Plato’s apparent radicalism again. Cf. on 501 A. Cf. also Laws 709 E, but note the qualification in 875 C, 713 E-714 A. 691 C-D. Wilamowitz, Platon, ii. pp. 381-383 seems to say that the εἷς ἱκανός is the philosopher—Plato. if he has a state which obeys him, Note the different tone of 565 E λαβὼν σφόδρα πειθόμενον ὄχλον . Cf. Phaedr. 260 C λαβὼν πόλιν ὡσαύτως ἔχουσαν πείθῃ . to realize Cf. on 499 D, and Frutiger, Mythes de Platon, p. 43. all that now seems so incredible. Yes, one is enough, he said. For if such a ruler, I said, ordains the laws and institutions that we have described it is surely not impossible that the citizens should be content to carry them out. By no means. Would it, then, be at all strange or impossible for others to come to the opinion to which we have come Cf. Epist. vii. 327 B-C, viii. 357 B ff. ? I think not, said he. And further that these things are best, if possible, has already, I take it, been sufficiently shown. Yes, sufficiently. Our present opinion, then, about this legislation is that our plan would be best if it could be realized and that this realization is difficult Cf. 502 A, Campbell’s not on Theaet. 144 A, and Wilamowitz, Platon, ii. p. 208. yet not impossible. That is the conclusion, he said. 
 This difficulty disposed of, we have next to speak of what remains, in what way, namely, and as a result of what studies and pursuits, these preservers Cf. on 412 A-B and 497 C-D, Laws 960 B. 463 B is not quite relevant. of the constitution will form a part of our state, and at what ages they will severally take up each study. Yes, we have to speak of that, he said. I gained nothing, I said, by my cunning For τὸ σοφόν Cf. Euthydem. 293 D, 297 D, Gorg. 493 A, Herod. v. 18 τοῦτο οὐδὲν εἶναι σοφόν , Symp. 214 A τὸ σύφισμα , Laches 183 D. in omitting heretofore Cf. 423 E. the distasteful topic of the possession of women and procreation of children and the appointment of rulers, because I knew that the absolutely true and right way would provoke censure and is difficult of realization; for now I am none the less compelled to discuss them. The matter of the women and children has been disposed of, In Bk. V. but the education of the rulers has to be examined again, I may say, from the starting-point.