Soc. Certainly, I said: the former mine, 

 the latter his. 
						
 Then surely, he went on, Chaeredemus was other than father ? 

 Than mine, at any rate, I said.

 Why then, he was father while being other than father. Or are you the same as the stone ? Cf. Plat. Gorg. 494a , where the life of a stone is given as a proverbial example of a life without pleasure or pain. 

 I fear you may prove that of me, I said, though I do not feel like it.

 Then are you other than the stone? 

 Other, I must say.

 Then of course, he went on, if you are other than stone, you are not stone? And if you are other than gold, you are not gold? 

 Quite so.

 Hence Chaeredemus, he said, being other than father, cannot be father. 

 It seems, I said, that he is not a father.

 No, for I presume, interposed Euthydemus, that if Chaeredemus is a father Sophroniscus in his turn, being other than a father, is not a father; so that you, Socrates, are fatherless. 

 Here Ctesippus took it up, observing: And your father too, is he not in just the same plight? Is he other than my father? 

 Not in the slightest , said Euthydemus.

 What, asked the other, is he the same? 

 The same, to be sure. 

 I should not like to think he was: but tell me, Euthydemus, is he my father only, or everybody else’s too? 

 Everybody else’s too, he replied; or do you suppose that the same man, being a father, can be no father? 

 I did suppose so, said Ctesippus.

 Well, said the other, and that a thing being gold could be not gold? Or being a man, not man? 

 Perhaps, Euthydemus, said Ctesippus, you are knotting flax with cotton, i.e. treating two different things as the same. as they say: for it is a strange result that you state, if your father is father of all. 

 He is, though, was the reply.

 Of all men, do you mean? asked Ctesippus, or of horses too, and all other animals? 

 Of all, he said.

 And is your mother a mother in the same way? 

 My mother too. 

 And is your mother a mother of sea-urchins? 

 Yes, and yours is also, he replied.

 So then you are a brother of the gudgeons and whelps and porkers. 

 Yes, and so are you, he said.

 Then your father is a boar and a dog. 

 And so is yours, he said.

 Yes, said Dionysodorus, and it will take you but a moment, if you will answer me, Ctesippus, to acknowledge all this. Just tell me, have you a dog? 

 Yes, a real rogue, said Ctesippus. 
						
 Has he got puppies? 

 Yes, a set of rogues like him. 

 Then is the dog their father? 

 Yes, indeed; I saw him with my own eyes covering the bitch. 

 Well now, is not the dog yours? 

 Certainly, he said.

 Thus he is a father, and yours, and accordingly the dog turns out to be your father, and you a brother of whelps. 

 Hereupon Dionysodorus struck in again quickly, lest Ctesippus should get a word in before him: Answer me just one more little point: do you beat this dog? 

 Ctesippus laughed and said: My word, yes; since I cannot beat you! 

 So you beat your own father? 

 he said. Soc. There would be much more justice, though, he replied, in my beating yours, for being so ill-advised as to beget clever sons like you. Yet I doubt, Ctesippus went on, if your father, Euthydemus—the puppies’ father—has derived much good from this wisdom of yours. 

 Why, he has no need of much good, Ctesippus, neither he nor you. 

 And have you no need either, yourself, Euthydemus? he asked.

 No, nor has any other man. Just tell me, Ctesippus, whether you think it good for a sick man to drink physic when he wants it, or whether you consider it not good; or for a man to go to the wars with arms rather than without them. 

 With them, I think, he replied: and yet I believe you are about to utter one of your pleasantries. 

 You will gather that well enough, he said: only answer me. Since you admit that physic is good for a man to drink when necessary, surely one ought to drink this good thing as much as possible; and in such a case it will be well to pound and infuse in it a cart-load of hellebore? 

 To this Ctesippus replied: Quite so, to be sure, Euthydemus, at any rate if the drinker is as big as the Delphian statue. 

 Then, further, since in war, he proceeded, it is good to have arms, one ought to have as many spears and shields as possible, if we agree that it is a good thing? 

 Yes, I suppose, said Ctesippus; and you, Euthydemus, do you take the other view, that it should be one shield and one spear? 

 Yes, I do. 

 What, he said, and would you arm Geryon also and Briareus Two fabulous giants (Geryon had three, Briareus fifty, pairs of arms). in this way? I thought you more of an expert than that, considering you are a man-at-arms, and your comrade here too! 

 At this Euthydemus was silent; then Dionysodorus asked some questions on Ctesippus’ previous answers, saying: Well now, gold is in your opinion a good thing to have? 

 Certainly, and—here I agree—plenty of it too, said Ctesippus.

 Well then, do you not think it right to have good things always and everywhere? 

 Assuredly, he said.

 Then do you admit that gold is also a good? 

 Why, I have admitted it, he replied.

 Then we ought always to have it, and everywhere, and above all, in oneself? And one will be happiest if one has three talents of gold in one’s belly, a talent in one’s skull, and a stater of gold in each eye? 

 Well, Euthydemus, replied Ctesippus, they say that among the Scythians those are the happiest and best men who have a lot of gold in their own skulls—somewhat as you were saying a moment ago that dog is father ; and a still more marvellous thing is told, how they drink out of their skulls when gilded, and gaze inside them, holding their own headpiece in their hands.