Pro. That seems to be their view. Soc. We should all agree that the opposite of generation is destruction, should we not? Pro. Inevitably. Soc. And he who chooses as they do would be choosing destruction and generation, not that third life in which there was neither pleasure nor pain, but only the purest possible thought. Pro. It is a great absurdity, as it appears, Socrates, to tell us that pleasure is a good. Soc. Yes, a great absurdity, and let us go still further. Pro. How? Soc. Is it not absurd to say that there is nothing good in the body or many other things, but only in the soul, and that in the soul the only good is pleasure, and that courage and self-restraint and understanding and all the other good things of the soul are nothing of the sort; and beyond all this to be obliged to say that he who is not feeling pleasure, and is feeling pain, is bad when he feels pain, though he be the best of men, and that he who feels pleasure is,
 when he feels pleasure, the more excellent in virtue the greater the pleasure he feels? Pro. All that, Socrates, is the height of absurdity. Soc. Now let us not undertake to subject pleasure to every possible test and then be found to give mind and knowledge very gentle treatment. Let us rather strike them boldly everywhere to see if their metal rings unsound at any point; so we shall find out what is by nature purest in them, and then we can make use of the truest elements of these and of pleasure to form our judgement of both. Pro. Right. Soc. Well, then, one part of knowledge is productive, the other has to do with education and support. Is that true? Pro. It is. Soc. Let us first consider whether in the manual arts one part is more allied to knowledge, and the other less, and the one should be regarded as purest, the other as less pure. Pro. Yes, we ought to consider that. Soc. And should the ruling elements of each of them be separated and distinguished from the rest? Pro. What are they, and how can they be separated? Soc. For example, if arithmetic and the sciences of measurement and weighing were taken away from all arts, what was left of any of them would be, so to speak, pretty worthless. Pro. Yes, pretty worthless.