<TEI xmlns="http://www.tei-c.org/ns/1.0" xmlns:py="http://codespeak.net/lxml/objectify/pytype" py:pytype="TREE"><text xml:lang="eng"><body><div type="translation" xml:lang="eng" n="urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0007.tlg138.perseus-eng2"><div type="textpart" subtype="section" n="26"><p rend="indent"><said rend="merge" who="#Diadumenus"><label resp="perseus">DIADUMENUS.</label> It is likewise against common sense when he says that there may be two ends or scopes proposed of life, and that all the things we do are not to be referred to one; and yet this is more against common sense, to say that there is an end, and yet that every action is to be referred to another. Nevertheless they must of necessity endure one of these. For if those things which are first according to Nature are not eligible for themselves, but the choice and taking of them agreeably to reason is so, and if every one therefore does all his actions for the acquiring the first things according to Nature, it follows that all things which are done must have their reference to this, that the principal things according to Nature may be obtained. But they think that they who aim and aspire to get these things do not have the things themselves for the end, but that to which they must refer, namely, the choice and not the things. For the end indeed is to choose and receive these things prudently. But the things themselves and the enjoying of them are not the end, but the material object, having its worth only from the choice. For it is my opinion that they both use and write this very expression, to show the difference.</said></p><p rend="indent"><said who="#Lamprias"><label>LAMPRIAS.</label> You have exactly related both what they say and in what manner they deliver it.</said></p><p rend="indent"><said who="#Diadumenus"><label>DIADUMENUS.</label>  But observe how it fares with them, as with those that endeavor to leap over their own shadow; for they do not leave behind, but always carry along with <pb xml:id="v.4.p.397"/> them in their speech some absurdity most remote from common sense. For as, if any one should say that he who shoots does all he can, not that he may hit the mark, but that he may do all he can, such a one would rightly be esteemed to speak enigmatically and prodigiously; so these doting dreamers, who contend that the obtaining of natural things is not the end of aiming after natural things, but the taking and choosing them is, and that the desire and endeavor after health is not in every one terminated in the enjoyment of health, but on the contrary, the enjoyment of health is referred to the desire and endeavor after it, and that certain walkings and contentions of speech and suffering incisions and taking of medicines, so they are done by reason, are the end of health, and not health of them,—they, I say, trifle like to those who say, Let us sup, that we may sacrifice, that we may bathe. But this rather changes order and custom, and all things which these men say carry with them the total subversion and confusion of affairs. Thus, we do not desire to take a walk in fit time that we may digest our meat; but we digest our meat that we may take a walk in fit time. Has Nature also made health for the sake of hellebore, instead of producing hellebore for the sake of health? For what is wanting to bring them to the highest degree of speaking paradoxes, but the saying of such things? What difference is there between him who says that health was made for the sake of medicines and not medicines for the sake of health, and him who makes the choice of medicines and their composition and use more desirable than health itself?—or rather who esteems health not at all desirable, but placing the end in the negotiation about these things, prefers desire to enjoyment, and not enjoyment to desire? For to desire, forsooth (they say), is joined the proceeding wisely and discreetly. It is true indeed, we will say, if respect be had to the end, that is, the enjoyment and possession of the things it pursues; <pb xml:id="v.4.p.398"/> but otherwise, it is wholly void of reason, if it does all things for the obtaining of that the enjoyment of which is neither honorable nor happy.</said></p></div><div type="textpart" subtype="section" n="27"><p rend="indent"><said rend="merge" who="#Diadumenus"><label resp="perseus">DIADUMENUS.</label> Now, since we are fallen upon this discourse, any thing may rather be said to agree with common sense, than that those who have neither received nor have any conception of good do nevertheless desire and pursue it. For you see how Chrysippus drives Ariston into this difficulty, that he should understand an indifference in things inclining neither to good nor to bad, before either good or bad is itself understood; for so indifference will appear to have subsisted even before itself, if the understanding of it cannot be perceived unless good be first understood, while the good is nothing else than this very indifference. Understand now and consider this indifference which the Stoa denies and calls consent, whence and in what manner it gives us the knowledge of good. For if without good the indifference to that which is not good cannot be understood, much less does the knowledge of good things give any intelligence of itself to those who had not before some notion of the good. But as there can be no knowledge of the art of things wholesome and unwholesome in those who have not first some knowledge of the things themselves; so they cannot conceive any notion of the science of good and evil who have not some fore-knowledge of good and evil.</said></p><p rend="indent"><said who="#Lamprias"><label>LAMPRIAS.</label> What then is good?</said></p><p rend="indent"><said who="#Diadumenus"><label>DIADUMENUS.</label>  Nothing but prudence.</said></p><p rend="indent"><said who="#Lamprias"><label>LAMPRIAS.</label>  And what is prudence?</said></p><p rend="indent"><said who="#Diadumenus"><label>DIADUMENUS.</label>  Nothing but the science of good.</said></p><p rend="indent"><said who="#Lamprias"><label>LAMPRIAS.</label>  There is much then of Jupiter’s Corinth (that is, much reasoning in a circle) admitted into their arguments. For I would have you let alone the saying about the turning of the pestle, lest you should seem to mock them; although an accident like to that has insinuated itself into their discourse. For it seems that, to the <pb xml:id="v.4.p.399"/> understanding of good, one has need to understand prudence, and to seek for prudence in the understanding of good, being forced always to pursue the one by the other, and thus failing of both; since to the understanding of each we have need of that which cannot be known without the other be first understood.</said></p><p rend="indent"><said who="#Diadumenus"><label>DIADUMENUS.</label>  But there is yet another way, by which you may perceive not only the perversion but the eversion of their discourse, and the reduction of it entirely to nothing. They hold the essence of good to be the reasonable election of things according to Nature. Now the election is not reasonable which is not directed to some end, as has been said before. What then is this end? Nothing else, say they, but to reason rightly in the election of things according to Nature. First then, the conception of good is lost and gone. For to reason rightly in election is an operation proceeding from an habit of right reasoning; and therefore being constrained to learn this from the end, and the end not without this, we fail of understanding either of them. Besides, which is more, this reasonable election ought in strict justice to be a choice of things good and useful, and co-operating to the end; for how can it be reasonable to choose things which are neither convenient nor honorable nor at all eligible? For be it, as they say, a reasonable election of things having a fitness for the causing felicity; see then to what a beautiful and grave conclusion their discourse brings them. For the end is (it seems), according to them, to reason rightly in the choice of things which are of worth in causing us to reason rightly.</said></p><p rend="indent"><said who="#Lamprias"><label>LAMPRIAS.</label>  When I hear these words, my friend, what is said seems to me strangely extravagant; and I farther want to know how this happens.</said></p><p rend="indent"><said who="#Diadumenus"><label>DIADUMENUS.</label>  You must then be more attentive; for it is not for every one to understand this riddle. Hear therefore <pb xml:id="v.4.p.400"/> and answer. Is not the end, according to them, to reason rightly in the election of things according to Nature.</said></p><p rend="indent"><said who="#Lamprias"><label>LAMPRIAS.</label>  So they say.</said></p><p rend="indent"><said who="#Diadumenus"><label>DIADUMENUS.</label>  And are these things according to Nature chosen as good, or as having some fitness or preferences <gap reason="lost" rend="..."/> either for this end or for something else?</said></p><p rend="indent"><said who="#Lamprias"><label>LAMPRIAS.</label>  I think not for any thing else but for this end.</said></p><p rend="indent"><said who="#Diadumenus"><label>DIADUMENUS.</label>  Now then, having discovered the matter, see what befalls them. They hold that the end is to reason rightly in the choice of things which are of worth in causing us to reason rightly, for they say that we neither have nor understand any other essence either of good or of felicity but this precious rectitude of reasoning in the election of things that are of worth. But there are some who think that this is spoken against Antipater, and not against the whole sect; for that he, being pressed by Carneades, fell into these fooleries.</said></p></div><div type="textpart" subtype="section" n="28"><p rend="indent"><said rend="merge" who="#Diadumenus"><label resp="perseus">DIADUMENUS.</label> But as for those things that are against the common conceptions taught in the Stoa concerning love, they are all of them concerned in the absurdity. They say, that those youths are deformed who are vicious and foolish, and that the wise are fair; and yet that none of these beautiful ones is either beloved or worthy of being beloved. Nor yet is this the worst; but they add, that those who love the deformed ones cease to do so when they are become fair. Now whoever knew such a love as is kindled and has its being at the sight of the body’s deformity joined with that of the soul, and is quenched and decays at the accession of beauty joined with prudence, justice, and temperance? These men are not unlike to those gnats which love to settle on the dregs of wine, or on vinegar, but shun and fly away from potable and pleasant wine. As for that which they call and term an appearance <pb xml:id="v.4.p.401"/> of beauty, saying that it is the inducement of love, —first, it has no probability, for in those who are very foul and highly wicked there cannot be an appearance of beauty, if indeed (as is said) the wickedness of the disposition fills the face with deformity. And secondly, it is absolutely against all common conceptions that the deformed should be worthy of love because he one day will be fair and expects to have beauty, but that when he has obtained it and is become fair and good, he should be beloved of none.</said></p><p rend="indent"><said who="#Lamprias"><label>LAMPRIAS.</label>  Love, they say, is a certain hunting after a young person who is as yet indeed imperfect, but naturally well-disposed towards virtue.</said></p><p rend="indent"><said who="#Diadumenus"><label>DIADUMENUS.</label>  And what do we now else, O my best friend, but demonstrate that their sect perverts and destroys all our common conceptions with improbable things and unusual expressions? For none would hinder the solicitude of these wise men towards young persons, if it were free from all passionate affection, from being called hunting or love of instruction; but they ought to call love that which all men and women understand and call by this name, like that which Penelope’s suitors in Homer seem to acknowledge, <quote rend="blockquote">Who all desired to lie with her;<note resp="editor" place="unspecified" anchored="true">Odyss. I. 366.</note> </quote>  or as Jupiter in another place says to Juno, <quote rend="blockquote"><lg><l>For neither Goddess yet nor mortal dame </l><l>E’er kindled in my heart so great a flame.</l><note resp="editor" place="unspecified" anchored="true">Il. XIV. 315.</note></lg></quote> </said></p></div><div type="textpart" subtype="section" n="29"><p rend="indent"><said rend="merge" who="#Diadumenus"><label resp="perseus">DIADUMENUS.</label> Thus casting moral philosophy into these matters, in which all is <quote rend="blockquote">A mazy whirl, with nothing sound, and all perplexed,<note resp="editor" place="unspecified" anchored="true">Eurip. Andromache, 448.</note> </quote>  they contemn and deride all about them, as if themselves were the only men who regulated nature and custom as it ought to be, and who at the same time adapted reason to <pb xml:id="v.4.p.402"/> each man’s peculiar state by means of aversions, desires, appetites, pursuits, and impulses. But custom has received no good from their logic, but, like the ear diseased by vain sounds, is filled with difficulty and obscurity,—of which, if you think good, we will elsewhere begin a new discourse. But now we will run through the chief and principal heads of their natural philosophy, which no less confounds the common conceptions than that other concerning ends.</said></p></div><div type="textpart" subtype="section" n="30"><p rend="indent"><said rend="merge" who="#Diadumenus"><label resp="perseus">DIADUMENUS.</label> First, this is altogether absurd and against sense, to say that is which is not, and things which are not are. But above all, that is most absurd which they say of the universe. For, putting round about the circumference of the world an infinite vacuum, they say that the universe is neither a body nor bodiless. It follows then from this that the universe has no being, since with them body only has a being. Since therefore it is the part of that which has a being both to do and suffer, and the universe has no being, it follows that the universe will neither do nor suffer. Neither will it be in a place; for that which takes up place is a body, and the universe is not a body, therefore the universe is nowhere. And since that only rests which continues in one and the same place, the universe rests not, because it takes not up place. Neither yet is it moved, for what is moved must have a place and space to move in. Moreover, what is moved either moves itself, or suffers motion from another. Now, that which is moved by itself has some bents and inclinations proceeding from its gravity or levity; and gravity and levity are either certain habits or faculties or differences of bodies. But the universe is not a body. It follows then of necessity, that the universe is neither heavy nor light, and consequently, that it has not in itself any principle of motion. Nor yet will the universe be moved by any other; for there is nothing else besides the universe. Thus are they necessitated to <pb xml:id="v.4.p.403"/> say as they do, that the universe neither rests nor is moved. Lastly, since according to their opinion it must not be said that the universe is a body, and yet the heaven, the earth, animals, plants, men, and stones are bodies, it follows that that which is no body will have bodies for its parts, and things which have existence will be parts of that which has no existence, and that which is not heavy will have parts that are heavy, and what is not light will have parts that are light;—than which there cannot be any dreams imagined more repugnant to the common conceptions.</said></p><p rend="indent"><said rend="merge" who="#Diadumenus"><label>DIADUMENUS.</label> Moreover, there is nothing so evident or so agreeing to common sense as this, that what is not animate is inanimate, and what is not inanimate is animate. And yet they overthrow also this evidence, confessing the universe to be neither animate nor inanimate. Besides this, none thinks the universe, of which there is no part wanting, to be imperfect; but they deny the universe to be perfect, saying that what is perfect may be defined, but the universe because of its infiniteness cannot be defined. Therefore, according to them, there is something which is neither perfect nor imperfect. Moreover, the universe is neither a part, since there is nothing greater than it; nor the whole, for the whole (they say) is predicated only of that which is digested into order; but the universe is, through its infiniteness, undetermined and unordered. Moreover, there is no other thing which can be the cause of the universe, there being nothing besides the universe; nor is the universe the cause of other things or even of itself; for its nature suffers it not to act, and a cause is understood by its acting. Suppose now, one should ask all men what they imagine <emph>nothing</emph> to be, and what notion they have of it. Would they not answer, that it neither is a cause nor has a cause, that it is neither the whole nor a part, that it is neither perfect nor imperfect, that it is neither animate nor inanimate, that it neither is moved nor rests nor subsists, <pb xml:id="v.4.p.404"/> that it is neither corporeal nor incorporeal; and that this and no other thing is meant by <emph>nothing?</emph> Since then they alone predicate that of the universe which all others do of <emph>nothing,</emph> it seems plain that they make the <emph>universe</emph> and <emph>nothing</emph> to be the same. Time must then be said to be nothing; the same also must be said of predicate, axiom, connection, combination, which terms they use more than any of the other philosophers, yet they say that they have no being. But farther, to say that what is true has no being or subsistence but is comprehended, and that that is comprehensible and credible which no way partakes of the essence of being,—does not this exceed all absurdity?</said></p></div></div></body></text></TEI>